Mysticism, Atheism and Reality

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09 Jan 2011, 12:41 pm

There was a topic on mysticism on this forum a couple of months ago which was little more than a debate on what it is, so I thought I would start this one with a definition from an introductory book on the subject.

Quote:

Here is the definition:—

Mysticism is the art of union with Reality. The mystic is a person who has attained that union in greater or less degree; or who aims at and believes in such attainment.

It is not expected that the inquirer will find great comfort in this sentence when first it meets his eye. The ultimate question, “What is Reality?”—a question, perhaps, which never occurred to him before—is already forming in his mind; and he knows that it will cause him infinite distress.

Underhill, Evelyn "Practical Mysticism" Chapter I

Is she right? Is the question of what reality is so distressing that many people don't consider it? The Strident Atheists constantly maintain that any belief in anything their physical senses can't detect is foolish, but isn't it just as foolish to assume that they can detect everything that is real. My perception of reality is just that, my perception of it, and it exists only in my own mind. Can there be nothing beyond that?

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09 Jan 2011, 1:02 pm

NobelCynic wrote:

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I sincerely doubt there is nothing beyond your own mind.

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09 Jan 2011, 1:03 pm

I can see Underhill's definition as being acceptable, so long as we interpret "union with reality" to be a matter of perception, not actuality.

I don't actually know what question is so distressing. As far as I can see, there are MANY questions about reality that people find distressing.

I think the Strident Atheist position would have to be more nuanced, at least for some of the members, as I think most of us would accept the existence of subatomic particles as well as electromagnetic waves. However... assuming that this is corrected, I don't think the stand is foolish. Y'see, people are often wrong about what exists, and they are wrong so often about what exists, that often a more skeptical approach is important and good. So, the Strident Atheists are just seeking to be critical in our acceptance of claims, and conservative in how much we expand our ontology, both of these moves are sensible.

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09 Jan 2011, 1:12 pm

I'd say that believing that there are things beyond your mind is reasonable. For one, other people seem to exist beyond your mind, and you likely give what they say some weight, as even if you disagree with a lot of things they say, you likely will accept certain facts you have not personally verified as true.

Even further though, the fact that your mind does not contain everything in your brain is a major issue. There is that subconscious element that intrudes into your mind, but is not found in its entirety to be there.

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09 Jan 2011, 2:02 pm

It is difficult to say what is mysticism is and what reality is.

Everything, that our 5 senses sense, is all an electrical representation inside our brains, perceived by our conciousness.

In my personal opinion, there is a lot beyond what our 5 senses sense.

Not all humans are awakened enough to sense these things, I am not fully myself, but i have friends who spend a lot of time meditating and looking after their health. A lot of them can feel the energy from other people, from plants, from anything really. One person i know calls it seeing / feeling vibrations. I prefer the term vibes or energy myself.

My interpretation of mysticism would be, realising that there are forces beyond what is considered "normal" and being able to interpret these forces.

You may agree or disagree, but even if a person does not consciously recognise other forces, we may may all be being influenced by the thoughts, feelings and ideas of others, even effected by the position of planets, the sun, the moon.

My two favourite spiritual films. Both made by the same guy, and in the order they were released.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FJiCU6Jw0Co[/youtube]

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AanQ2mY2jjc[/youtube]

If you want something to make you think deeply about what is reality, watch this film waking life.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-iDAaS3QiNk[/youtube]

Full film here:
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid ... 0854515095

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14 Jan 2011, 11:41 am

NobelCynic wrote:

Quote:

That is nonsense. How do we 'connect to reality' any more than a rock 'connect to reality'?

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14 Jan 2011, 11:57 am

01001011 wrote:

That is nonsense. How do we 'connect to reality' any more than a rock 'connect to reality'?

Some suggest that psychedelic substances open a gateway towards our collective consciousness that is inaccessible to most of us during a normal state. The idea of God as not some "big daddy in the sky" but a collective universal consciousness is basic pantheism and can be found in numerous religions, from esoteric Wotanism to Advaita Vedanta. The idea of communicating with this collective consciousness by means of psychedelics or other substances is called shamanism and is currently also practiced here in the West in eg. New Age circles.

Now, this might all be an illusion, especially considering psychedelics are known to generate visual illusions commonly refered to as hallucinations. Still, the suggestion of a collective consciousness and the ability to tap into it occurs among pretty much everyone who uses psychedelics and the rational insights that come with it are often very valuable, which does make me reluctant to reject it at face value.

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14 Jan 2011, 12:40 pm

PatrickNeville wrote:

omf(ictional)g, how many hours of video do you want us to watch?

here's less than one, for you.

http://www.ted.com/talks/michael_shermer_the_pattern_behind_self_deception.html

http://www.ted.com/talks/michael_shermer_on_believing_strange_things.html

those are two ted talks by michael shermer on why people believe strange things (mysticism).

i'm sorry to hear that you're not "awake enough" to understand all that mumbojumbo your friends are spewing. maybe you should pay for some auditing with the scientologists. it's really the only way to get "clear."

:roll:

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14 Jan 2011, 12:51 pm

Salonfilosoof wrote:

01001011 wrote:

That is nonsense. How do we 'connect to reality' any more than a rock 'connect to reality'?

i suggest that psychedelic substances induce introspective hallucinations. to say that insights gained through introspection implies a direct, "collective consciousness" style, connection is adding an unnecessary step: the collective aspect. it helps to realize that you're analyzing yourself and that you are human. you are, therefore, analyzing a human. other humans are similar to you. oranges are similar to other oranges, as well. does this require a "collective orange?" i don't think so. maybe you do?

i'm not saying i can't conceive of a collective consciousness but i am saying i don't see any real evidence for it. we humans have a long history of making-sh**-up to answer questions we think up.

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14 Jan 2011, 1:01 pm

waltur wrote:

The point is that psychedelics basically implant the idea of a universal consciousness of which every individual conscious person is but a small part. The combination of this impression and the insights gained through introspection make this sensation seem very real and while I'm perfectly aware of they fact this can be an illusion and is far from actual proof it does fit into many Eastern philosophies and it can be defended logically.

waltur wrote:

i'm not saying i can't conceive of a collective consciousness but i am saying i don't see any real evidence for it. we humans have a long history of making-sh**-up to answer questions we think up.

I couldn't agree more. I'm merely pointing out that lack of evidence doesn't equal evidence of something lacking and that we should at least consider the concept of collective consciousness. After all, we still don't have a clue what the universe is, how big it (it, being the container in which all matter exists) is and if it even had a beginning. For all we know, the universe itself is a mass hallucination

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14 Jan 2011, 1:43 pm

Salonfilosoof wrote:

waltur wrote:

i'm not saying i can't conceive of a collective consciousness but i am saying i don't see any real evidence for it. we humans have a long history of making-sh**-up to answer questions we think up.

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14 Jan 2011, 2:22 pm

waltur wrote:

we humans have a long history of making-sh**-up to answer questions we think up.

... but we also have a long history of thinking we know everything there is to know, pretending we are intellectually superior to others and rejecting beliefs that don't fit into our frame of reference off hand just because we might have to change our minds about something.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyOHJa5Vj5Y[/youtube]

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14 Jan 2011, 2:32 pm

Salonfilosoof wrote:

waltur wrote:

we humans have a long history of making-sh**-up to answer questions we think up.

i agree with that statement entirely. you know, i saw a video, recently, that might help you understand. here, try watching it.

Salonfilosoof wrote:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XyOHJa5Vj5Y[/youtube]

"two words..." self reflection.

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14 Jan 2011, 2:47 pm

waltur wrote:

Salonfilosoof wrote:

waltur wrote:

we humans have a long history of making-sh**-up to answer questions we think up.

i agree with that statement entirely. you know, i saw a video, recently, that might help you understand. here, try watching it.

.....

"two words..." self reflection.

I don't pretend I'm superior to others. We're all flawed and there is no way of knowing everything there is to know. That's why I more and more try to make people think for themselves rather than say what I believe to be true. Also, I never do and never will reject anything off hand and in fact changed my entire belief system multiple times as a consequence. Having an open mind implies the willingness to reject anything you've accepted as fact. Rejecting your old belief system until you come to realise that ALL ideology and ALL religion is flawed and that history is constantly rewritten to suit the dominant ideologies (which are currently liberalism and neoconservatism) is the only way towards enlightenment or true wisdom.

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14 Jan 2011, 3:02 pm

Salonfilosoof wrote:

waltur wrote:

Salonfilosoof wrote:

waltur wrote:

we humans have a long history of making-sh**-up to answer questions we think up.

i agree with that statement entirely. you know, i saw a video, recently, that might help you understand. here, try watching it.

.....

"two words..." self reflection.

I don't pretend I'm superior to others. We're all flawed and there is no way of knowing everything there is to know.

that sounds like an admirable position.

Salonfilosoof wrote:

That's why I more and more try to make people think for themselves rather than say what I believe to be true.

another admirable position that i can't disagree with.

Salonfilosoof wrote:

Also, I never do and never will reject anything off hand and in fact changed my entire belief system multiple times as a consequence. Having an open mind implies the willingness to reject anything you've accepted as fact. Rejecting your old belief system until you come to realise that ALL ideology and ALL religion is flawed and that history is constantly rewritten to suit the dominant ideologies (which are currently liberalism and neoconservatism) is the only way towards enlightenment or true wisdom.

well i'm glad you didn't stick to that whole "I don't pretend I'm superior to others. We're all flawed and there is no way of knowing everything there is to know" shtick! that would have been boring. now that i know that you know the truth, i know just what to do!

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14 Jan 2011, 3:07 pm

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bBUc_kATGgg[/youtube]

throw youtube videos at it!

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