Page 1 of 1 [ 11 posts ] 

91
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Oct 2010
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,063
Location: Australia

17 Jan 2011, 7:02 am

I always enjoyed this insight on the complicated relationship between religion and liberty.

Alexis de Tocqueville wrote:
Zealous Christians are still found among us, whose minds are nurtured on the thoughts that pertain to a future life, and who readily espouse the cause of human liberty as the source of all moral greatness. Christianity, which has declared that all men are equal in the sight of God, will not refuse to acknowledge that all citizens are equal in the eye of the law. But, by a strange coincidence of events, religion has been for a time entangled with those institutions which democracy destroys; and it is not infrequently brought to reject the equality which it loves, and to curse as a foe that cause of liberty whose efforts it might hallow by its alliance.

By the side of these religious men I discern others whose thoughts are turned to earth rather than to heaven. These are the partisans of liberty, not only as the source of the noblest virtues, but more especially as the root of all solid advantages; and they sincerely desire to secure its authority, and to impart its blessings to mankind. It is natural that they should hasten to invoke the assistance of religion, for they must know that liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith. But they have seen religion in the ranks of their adversaries, and they inquire no further; some of them attack it openly, and the rest are afraid to defend it.


_________________
Life is real ! Life is earnest!
And the grave is not its goal ;
Dust thou art, to dust returnest,
Was not spoken of the soul.


leejosepho
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Sep 2009
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,011
Location: 200 miles south of Little Rock

17 Jan 2011, 7:13 am

Alexis de Tocqueville wrote:
Christianity ... will not refuse to acknowledge that all citizens are equal in the eye of the law. But ... it is not infrequently brought ... to curse as a foe that cause of liberty whose efforts it might hallow by its alliance.

I see men attempting to liberate themselves from sovereign rule, and therein lies the rub.


_________________
I began looking for someone like me when I was five ...
My search ended at 59 ... right here on WrongPlanet.
==================================


Sand
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Age: 99
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,484
Location: Finland

17 Jan 2011, 8:24 am

91 wrote:
I always enjoyed this insight on the complicated relationship between religion and liberty.

Alexis de Tocqueville wrote:
Zealous Christians are still found among us, whose minds are nurtured on the thoughts that pertain to a future life, and who readily espouse the cause of human liberty as the source of all moral greatness. Christianity, which has declared that all men are equal in the sight of God, will not refuse to acknowledge that all citizens are equal in the eye of the law. But, by a strange coincidence of events, religion has been for a time entangled with those institutions which democracy destroys; and it is not infrequently brought to reject the equality which it loves, and to curse as a foe that cause of liberty whose efforts it might hallow by its alliance.

By the side of these religious men I discern others whose thoughts are turned to earth rather than to heaven. These are the partisans of liberty, not only as the source of the noblest virtues, but more especially as the root of all solid advantages; and they sincerely desire to secure its authority, and to impart its blessings to mankind. It is natural that they should hasten to invoke the assistance of religion, for they must know that liberty cannot be established without morality, nor morality without faith. But they have seen religion in the ranks of their adversaries, and they inquire no further; some of them attack it openly, and the rest are afraid to defend it.


So it seems de Tocqueville had his failings as well. It's good to know.



ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 88
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

17 Jan 2011, 9:57 am

Sand wrote:

So it seems de Tocqueville had his failings as well. It's good to know.


What failing? De T. was dead on right. He had a better grasp of America than most Americans did at the time he visited this country. Many of his insights are still true.

ruveyn



Sand
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Age: 99
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,484
Location: Finland

17 Jan 2011, 10:42 am

ruveyn wrote:
Sand wrote:

So it seems de Tocqueville had his failings as well. It's good to know.


What failing? De T. was dead on right. He had a better grasp of America than most Americans did at the time he visited this country. Many of his insights are still true.

ruveyn


If the quote given is correct he claimed all morality must be derived from faith and by that logic no atheist could be moral. That is obviously and totally wrong.



pandabear
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 16 Aug 2007
Age: 66
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,402

17 Jan 2011, 11:01 am

If de Tocqueville said it, then it must be right.



Sand
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 15 Sep 2007
Age: 99
Gender: Male
Posts: 11,484
Location: Finland

17 Jan 2011, 11:09 am

pandabear wrote:
If de Tocqueville said it, then it must be right.


51 is a pretty early age for dementia to set in.



pandabear
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 16 Aug 2007
Age: 66
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,402

17 Jan 2011, 11:26 am

Sand wrote:
pandabear wrote:
If de Tocqueville said it, then it must be right.


51 is a pretty early age for dementia to set in.


Do I get a sympathy card?



skafather84
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 20 Mar 2006
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,848
Location: New Orleans, LA

17 Jan 2011, 11:30 am

Sand wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Sand wrote:

So it seems de Tocqueville had his failings as well. It's good to know.


What failing? De T. was dead on right. He had a better grasp of America than most Americans did at the time he visited this country. Many of his insights are still true.

ruveyn


If the quote given is correct he claimed all morality must be derived from faith and by that logic no atheist could be moral. That is obviously and totally wrong.


It's a matter of paradigm change. The paradigm of morality has changed from that time as education has changed. The usefulness of religion at that time was education and psychological counsel. Both functions are now served better outside of their grasp.


_________________
Wherever they burn books they will also, in the end, burn human beings. ~Heinrich Heine, Almansor, 1823

?I wouldn't recommend sex, drugs or insanity for everyone, but they've always worked for me.? - Hunter S. Thompson


ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 88
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

17 Jan 2011, 11:41 am

Sand wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Sand wrote:

So it seems de Tocqueville had his failings as well. It's good to know.


What failing? De T. was dead on right. He had a better grasp of America than most Americans did at the time he visited this country. Many of his insights are still true.

ruveyn


If the quote given is correct he claimed all morality must be derived from faith and by that logic no atheist could be moral. That is obviously and totally wrong.


De. T. wrote in 1835. Times have changed. And religious convection did impose a code of morality at one time. We have since learned that morality can also flow from naturalistic reason. That is a post Darwinian thing, more obvious in the late 19th century.

ruveyn



pandabear
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 16 Aug 2007
Age: 66
Gender: Male
Posts: 9,402

17 Jan 2011, 5:42 pm

Just about every character in the Bible, from Adam on down, was immoral in one way or another. Even God himself acted in ways that were grossly immoral.

Lot and his family were supposedly the only moral people left in town, and look at what they did as soon as they escaped God's just wrath.

And, quite a lot of immoral people go to church.