Space Warfare
iamnotaparakeet
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I remember reading about a time in a conference in which Robert Heinlein was speaking that he was asked about why he had warfare in his futuristic novels, to which he basically replied that it's inevitable. Basically, wherever goes humanity warfare with it goes also. So, is warfare in space actually inevitable (assuming humans do more than just twiddle around in LEO aluminum can laboratories and that's all that's done ever) or is it just that with all the warfare of Heinlein's time that such would seem inevitable?
Such will be so. Humans are the only species that wantonly decimate themselves.
I imagine if colonies ever happen on Mars, the Moon or elsewhere, there will be movements for autonomy eventually. Some might be violent.
Provided human civilization does'nt destroy itself before then.
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I imagine if colonies ever happen on Mars, the Moon or elsewhere, there will be movements for autonomy eventually. Some might be violent.
Provided human civilization does'nt destroy itself before then.
Humans have never destroyed civilization in the totality. All destruction, to date, has been partial.
ruveyn
You're assuming that the human race will live long enough to master space travel.
I mean 2012 is just around the corner
There is a whole episode of the show "The Universe" dedicated to space wars. I think that you would enjoy watch that. There is also this book "Space Wars: The First Six Hours of World War III" ( http://www.amazon.com/Space-Wars-First- ... 919&sr=8-1 ) also seems interesting. We already have capability to shoot down satellites from the ground. I also watched recently the movie "The Right Stuff" and it is fun to watch because there is this cold war paranoia about the space race. The character says: "the romans ruled the world because they had roads, the English because they had ships, we because of the planes and whoever dominates the space will rule the world". In that the universe episode they show a prototype of a large "rail-gun". They also said that if someone detonates a nuclear weapon in space it would shut down all eletronic devices in an area the size of the United States. The episode is fun to watch, they bring the scientific consultant from "Battlestar:Galatica" to talk. . There is also one episode of "Dogfights" about future technology. They talk a little about the scramjet which would go to space horizontaly.
I imagine if colonies ever happen on Mars, the Moon or elsewhere, there will be movements for autonomy eventually. Some might be violent.
Provided human civilization does'nt destroy itself before then.
Humans have never destroyed civilization in the totality. All destruction, to date, has been partial.
ruveyn
Blasting ourselves back to the dark ages would put a hamper on space exploration.
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iamnotaparakeet
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I imagine if colonies ever happen on Mars, the Moon or elsewhere, there will be movements for autonomy eventually. Some might be violent.
Provided human civilization does'nt destroy itself before then.
Humans have never destroyed civilization in the totality. All destruction, to date, has been partial.
ruveyn
That true, and even since the past few decades from when weaponry which could accomplish this feat were made such has not occurred yet either. Most national leaders of nations having nuclear weaponry are sane enough not to use them due to M.A.D., and in the 1980's Israel had taken out the facilities of one nation which had leadership that was insane enough to have used them.
Well there have been many treaties to try and prevent war in space. The Soviets had a military space station in the 1960's that had a machine gun on it. Ultimately one has to realize how hard it is to fight when you're traveling 30,000 km/h or more. I see it as an inevitability that a war in space probably will happen though, maybe over the Moon or Mars, or maybe for future autonomy as someone else mentioned. However I believe it will be Earth that exports the violence. Early space colonies will be inhabited mostly by scientist and engineer types. It'll be the politicians on the home-world who initiate the violence, I believe
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Warfare in space is kinda like a gang rumble breaking out among patients on life support in the intensive care unit of a hospital. Space colonist would be dependant on the constant monitoring of expensive technology to survive- just like IC patients. Its hard for me to imagine either of those two groups of people mixing it up.
We dont fight wars in Antarctica today. We dont even fight wars OVER Antarctica.
Space colonization will probably go through an Antarctica phase (just hundfulls of lonely scientiests and engineers).
Concievably space colonization could procede to evolve in ways analagous to the European colonizaiton of the New World. First you would have thousands of families of permanent inhabitants living beyond earth.
Then you would see terrestrial powers fighting over the moon and or mars- and doing some of the actual fighting on Mars or the moon ( like the French and Indian Wars). Then later the space colonist themselves might concievably fight for independence from earth ( Like Simon Bolivar or George Washington).
But I think that if future space colonization actually happens it will not really evolve in ways analgous to human civilizations expanding on earth because survival itsself is so problematic and so capital intensive in a non earth environment. It just would be too suicidal to kill and thus provoke others to kill you in such an environment.
Even if, say, Mars settlements become financially independent from earth ( say by strip mining metal ores say and exporting them at a profit) they would still not be self sufficient and be so hopelessly dependent upon Earth for actual survival that warfare would be like a rumble in the IC unit- it just would be too suicidal to be feasible for the people deployed in space..
And unless we actually succeed in 'terrafroming" other planets (which would take thousands of years anyway) colonists on other planets would probably remain politically dependent on earth for centuries to come.
iamnotaparakeet
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We dont fight wars in Antarctica today. We dont even fight wars OVER Antarctica.
Space colonization will probably go through an Antarctica phase (just hundfulls of lonely scientiests and engineers).
Concievably space colonization could procede to evolve in ways analagous to the European colonizaiton of the New World. First you would have thousands of families of permanent inhabitants living beyond earth.
Then you would see terrestrial powers fighting over the moon and or mars- and doing some of the actual fighting on Mars or the moon ( like the French and Indian Wars). Then later the space colonist themselves might concievably fight for independence from earth ( Like Simon Bolivar or George Washington).
But I think that if future space colonization actually happens it will not really evolve in ways analgous to human civilizations expanding on earth because survival itsself is so problematic and so capital intensive in a non earth environment. It just would be too suicidal to kill and thus provoke others to kill you in such an environment.
Even if, say, Mars settlements become financially independent from earth ( say by strip mining metal ores say and exporting them at a profit) they would still not be self sufficient and be so hopelessly dependent upon Earth for actual survival that warfare would be like a rumble in the IC unit- it just would be too suicidal to be feasible for the people deployed in space..
And unless we actually succeed in 'terrafroming" other planets (which would take thousands of years anyway) colonists on other planets would probably remain politically dependent on earth for centuries to come.
I agree with most of your points, though I suspect that when settlement becomes a realistic option, technology will be much more advanced and self-sufficiency much more realistic. I like the analogy you made between space warfare and an IC unit. Another issue with space warfare is how easy it would be to destroy a rebellious settlement on Mars or Luna. Just target the life support system, or crack the dome, or have saboteurs increase the oxygen level and light a match..
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Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do
But it's almost happened several times. And every decade a new member (or more) joins the club. And it's only been 50+ years versus 10,000+ of organized human warfare.
I think there is no question that war will come to space one day, if we survive. Humans love war. It's exciting.
richardbenson
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There are those and myriad other ideas for how to make a martian colony 'self sufficient', but by pointing this out youve only underscored how vulnerable even "self sufficient' colonies would be-even without hostility from other humans.
Sure you could grow food in greenhouses, but youd constantly worry about micro metereorites breaking the window panes. Nature would be enough of an enemy.
But what happens when a human enemy tosses gravel and breaks a few more window panes? Out rushes the oxegen and the colony is plunged into starvaton.
And thats an enemy armed only with rocks! Imagine trying to survive on mars against an enemy armed with even low tech grenades. Then try to imagine surviving against an enemy armed with smart missles and bunker busters etc.
Hitler had to manufacture ballbearings and had to extract oil from coal in factories, and the allied airforces lost many bombers trying to knock out those capabilities, but Hitler didnt have to manufacture air for the German people to breath! If both Churchill and Hitler had to defend "atmosphere factories" the war wouldve ended alot sooner (either by both nations being wiped out or by both sides sueing for peace to avoid being wiped out).
I can envision nations having disputes over space property. But the tendency would be to fight about it here on earth ( we will bomb or blackade your cities on earth if you dont remove those space colonies from our sector on Luna) rather than in space itsself because it would cause space exploration itsself to become too untenable- atleast in the forseeable future.
I agree. You can look at how many European nations fought over America. There were never really any massive set-piece battles on the continent. Even the Plains of Abraham that decided French vs British dominance involved no more then four or five thousand, maximum ten thousand, men, and didn't have an enormous amount of casualties. Most of the time the French were willing to let the colonies be taken without a fight to ensure the infrastructure (and investment) was not damaged, but fight hard on the continent to ensure that in the ensuing peace their colonies could be traded back. I think though, that once self-sufficient technology and easy space travel becomes possible, we'll see a blossoming of Human culture where we make use of basically every part of the solar system. If you can just pick up and go somewhere and live in the same standards of self-sufficient living 100,000 km or 100,000,000 km away, you don't need to kill people over social issues anymore. So perhaps at this point war would become irrelevant and viewed as a desperate act of insanity (which it basically is; sometimes it is necessary as a response to insanity, of course, trust me I'm no dirty hippie!). At this point I think the colonization of space would be more analogous to the Polynesian settlement of the Pacific then to the European scramble for territory
_________________
Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do
I agree. You can look at how many European nations fought over America. There were never really any massive set-piece battles on the continent. Even the Plains of Abraham that decided French vs British dominance involved no more then four or five thousand, maximum ten thousand, men, and didn't have an enormous amount of casualties. Most of the time the French were willing to let the colonies be taken without a fight to ensure the infrastructure (and investment) was not damaged, but fight hard on the continent to ensure that in the ensuing peace their colonies could be traded back. I think though, that once self-sufficient technology and easy space travel becomes possible, we'll see a blossoming of Human culture where we make use of basically every part of the solar system. If you can just pick up and go somewhere and live in the same standards of self-sufficient living 100,000 km or 100,000,000 km away, you don't need to kill people over social issues anymore. So perhaps at this point war would become irrelevant and viewed as a desperate act of insanity (which it basically is; sometimes it is necessary as a response to insanity, of course, trust me I'm no dirty hippie!). At this point I think the colonization of space would be more analogous to the Polynesian settlement of the Pacific then to the European scramble for territory
In a saner world, war would become the acts committed by religious zealots. The religious crazies of the world will go to the ends of the universe to impose their views on others.
Allah hu akbar! God is Great.
ruveyn