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leejosepho
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23 Apr 2011, 2:48 pm

Here is one of my favorite stories in Scripture ...

"And it came to be, when Ahab saw Elijah, that Ahab said to him, 'Is that you, O disturber of Yisra’el?'
"And Elijah answered, 'I ... only disturb ... you and your father’s house, (and I do that because) you have ... followed the Ba'als.'
“And so now, send and gather:
"(1) all Yisra’el to me on Mount Karmel (to observe and to learn),
"(2) the four hundred and fifty prophets of Ba'al (to try to put on a show),
"(3) and the four hundred prophets of Ash'rah, who eat at Izeb'el’s table.”

Note: Elijah's purpose here was only related to people who had "forsaken the commands of YHWH" ...

"And Elijah came to all the people, and said, '... If YHWH is Elohim, follow Him; and if Ba'al, follow him.'
"And Elijah said to the people, 'I alone am left a prophet of YHWH, but the prophets of Ba'al are four hundred and fifty men."

Note: What we have here is one "prophet of YHWH" who is now going to present a challenge to four hundred and fifty other men ...

"And Elijah said to the prophets of Ba'al, 'Choose one bull for yourselves and prepare it first, for you are many. And call on the name of your mighty one, but set no fire.
"So they took the bull ... and prepared it, and called on the name of Ba'al from morning even until noon, saying, 'O Ba'al, answer us!'
"But there was no voice and no one answered. And they leaped about the altar which they had made.
"And it came to be at noon, that Elijah taunted them and said, 'Cry aloud, for he is ... [possibly] meditating, or he is busy, or he is on a journey, or it could be that he is asleep and has to be awakened!'
"And they cried aloud, and cut themselves, according to their ruling, with knives and spears, until the blood gushed out on them.
"And it came to be when midday was past, that they prophesied until the time of bringing the evening offering. But there was no voice and no one answered, and no one paying attention."

Note: The prophets of Ba'al had failed to call fire from heaven.

"Then Elijah ... made a trench around the altar ... and said, 'Fill four jars with water, and pour it on the burnt offering and on the wood.'
"Then he said, 'Do it a second time' ...
"And he said, 'Do it a third time' ...
"And the water flowed around the altar, and he filled the trench with water too ...

"Then the fire of YHWH fell and consumed the burnt offering, and the wood and the stones and the dust, and it licked up the water that was in the trench."

(1 Kings 18:17-38)

Point: Even Elijah was far from being the first to ever place any faith in a so-called "sky fairy" and/or to mock people who seemed to be doing so!


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Last edited by leejosepho on 23 Apr 2011, 2:52 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ruveyn
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23 Apr 2011, 2:51 pm

leejosepho wrote:
Here is one of my favorite stories in Scripture ...

"And it came to be, when Ahab saw Elijah, that Ahab said to him, 'Is that you, O disturber of Yisra’el?'
"And Elijah answered, 'I ... only disturb ... you and your father’s house, (and I do that because) you have ... followed the Ba'als.'
“And so now, send and gather:
"(1) all Yisra’el to me on Mount Karmel (to observe and to learn),
"(2) the four hundred and fifty prophets of Ba'al (to try to put on a show),
"(3) and the four hundred prophets of Ash'rah, who eat at Izeb'el’s table.”

Note: Elijah's purpose here was only related to people who had "forsaken the commands of YHWH" ...

"And Elijah came to all the people, and said, '... If YHWH is Elohim, follow Him; and if Ba'al, follow him.'
"And Elijah said to the people, 'I alone am left a prophet of YHWH, but the prophets of Ba'al are four hundred and fifty men."

Note: What we have here is one "prophet of YHWH" who is now going to present a challenge to four hundred and fifty other men ...

"And Elijah said to the prophets of Ba'al, 'Choose one bull for yourselves and prepare it first, for you are many. And call on the name of your mighty one, but set no fire.
"So they took the bull ... and prepared it, and called on the name of Ba'al from morning even until noon, saying, 'O Ba'al, answer us!'
"But there was no voice and no one answered. And they leaped about the altar which they had made.
"And it came to be at noon, that Elijah taunted them and said, 'Cry aloud, for he is ... [possibly] meditating, or he is busy, or he is on a journey, or it could be that he is asleep and has to be awakened!'
"And they cried aloud, and cut themselves, according to their ruling, with knives and spears, until the blood gushed out on them.
"And it came to be when midday was past, that they prophesied until the time of bringing the evening offering. But there was no voice and no one answered, and no one paying attention."

Note: The prophets of Ba'al had failed to call fire from heaven.

"Then Elijah ... made a trench around the altar ... and said, 'Fill four jars with water, and pour it on the burnt offering and on the wood.'
"Then he said, 'Do it a second time' ...
"And he said, 'Do it a third time' ...
"And the water flowed around the altar, and he filled the trench with water too ...

"Then the fire of YHWH fell and consumed the burnt offering, and the wood and the stones and the dust, and it licked up the water that was in the trench."

(1 Kings 18:17-38)

Point: Even Elijah was far from being the first to ever place any faith in a so-called "sky fairy" and/or to mock people who actually did!


Elijah apparently learned some applied electrical circuit and resistance theory. He put water about his pile of kindling providing a line of lesser resistance. When there was an electrical discharge from the sky (aka lightning) it was more likely to strike his kindling than the others.

Electricity 101.

ruveyn



leejosepho
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23 Apr 2011, 2:54 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Elijah apparently learned some applied electrical circuit and resistance theory. He put water about his pile of kindling providing a line of lesser resistance. When there was an electrical discharge from the sky (aka lightning) it was more likely to strike his kindling than the others.

Electricity 101.

ruveyn

So then, he actually was far more knowledgeable and wise than all them other guys, eh?!

Maybe the pew jumpers need to take note here ...


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24 Apr 2011, 5:21 pm

I have suspected the "water" poured on may have had some petroleum / naphtha contennt .....



leejosepho
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24 Apr 2011, 5:57 pm

Philologos wrote:
I have suspected the "water" poured on may have had some petroleum / naphtha contennt .....

Lemme go grab some lighter fluid and a few pebbles and see whether Ruveyn can arrange for a bit of lightening ...


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Inuyasha
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24 Apr 2011, 10:02 pm

leejosepho wrote:
Philologos wrote:
I have suspected the "water" poured on may have had some petroleum / naphtha contennt .....

Lemme go grab some lighter fluid and a few pebbles and see whether Ruveyn can arrange for a bit of lightening ...


I don't recall it saying it was a stormy day, so now we have lightning coming out of the clear blue sky. And then it just happened to hit the offering location he had set up... There comes a point when coincidences are no longer coincidences.



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24 Apr 2011, 10:09 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
leejosepho wrote:
Philologos wrote:
I have suspected the "water" poured on may have had some petroleum / naphtha contennt .....

Lemme go grab some lighter fluid and a few pebbles and see whether Ruveyn can arrange for a bit of lightening ...


I don't recall it saying it was a stormy day, so now we have lightning coming out of the clear blue sky. And then it just happened to hit the offering location he had set up... There comes a point when coincidences are no longer coincidences.


Lightning has been known to strike far away from the actual region covered by the thundercloud. Usually the (relatively) recently discovered 'positive lighting' variety


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24 Apr 2011, 10:11 pm

Vigilans wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
leejosepho wrote:
Philologos wrote:
I have suspected the "water" poured on may have had some petroleum / naphtha contennt .....

Lemme go grab some lighter fluid and a few pebbles and see whether Ruveyn can arrange for a bit of lightening ...


I don't recall it saying it was a stormy day, so now we have lightning coming out of the clear blue sky. And then it just happened to hit the offering location he had set up... There comes a point when coincidences are no longer coincidences.


Lightning has been known to strike far away from the actual region covered by the thundercloud. Usually the (relatively) recently discovered 'positive lighting' variety


While, that is true the odds of it hitting the offering place precisely when Elijah wanted it to are pretty astronomical.



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24 Apr 2011, 10:14 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
leejosepho wrote:
Philologos wrote:
I have suspected the "water" poured on may have had some petroleum / naphtha contennt .....

Lemme go grab some lighter fluid and a few pebbles and see whether Ruveyn can arrange for a bit of lightening ...


I don't recall it saying it was a stormy day, so now we have lightning coming out of the clear blue sky. And then it just happened to hit the offering location he had set up... There comes a point when coincidences are no longer coincidences.


Lightning has been known to strike far away from the actual region covered by the thundercloud. Usually the (relatively) recently discovered 'positive lighting' variety


While, that is true the odds of it hitting the offering place precisely when Elijah wanted it to are pretty astronomical.


Not too sure of all the specifics of the story myself. Just felt like adding that blue-sky lightning does happen. I am pretty interested by extreme weather. Anyways, carry on gentlemen :P


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Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do


Inuyasha
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24 Apr 2011, 10:18 pm

Vigilans wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
leejosepho wrote:
Philologos wrote:
I have suspected the "water" poured on may have had some petroleum / naphtha contennt .....

Lemme go grab some lighter fluid and a few pebbles and see whether Ruveyn can arrange for a bit of lightening ...


I don't recall it saying it was a stormy day, so now we have lightning coming out of the clear blue sky. And then it just happened to hit the offering location he had set up... There comes a point when coincidences are no longer coincidences.


Lightning has been known to strike far away from the actual region covered by the thundercloud. Usually the (relatively) recently discovered 'positive lighting' variety


While, that is true the odds of it hitting the offering place precisely when Elijah wanted it to are pretty astronomical.


Not too sure of all the specifics of the story myself. Just felt like adding that blue-sky lightning does happen. I am pretty interested by extreme weather. Anyways, carry on gentlemen :P


I'm pointing out that Elijah had to put a lot of faith on the fact something would happen, so unless you can prove that he was really an alien with a space ship that had rayguns, I think there is a good indication that God does exist.



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24 Apr 2011, 10:37 pm

Inuyasha wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
leejosepho wrote:
Philologos wrote:
I have suspected the "water" poured on may have had some petroleum / naphtha contennt .....

Lemme go grab some lighter fluid and a few pebbles and see whether Ruveyn can arrange for a bit of lightening ...


I don't recall it saying it was a stormy day, so now we have lightning coming out of the clear blue sky. And then it just happened to hit the offering location he had set up... There comes a point when coincidences are no longer coincidences.


Lightning has been known to strike far away from the actual region covered by the thundercloud. Usually the (relatively) recently discovered 'positive lighting' variety


While, that is true the odds of it hitting the offering place precisely when Elijah wanted it to are pretty astronomical.


Not too sure of all the specifics of the story myself. Just felt like adding that blue-sky lightning does happen. I am pretty interested by extreme weather. Anyways, carry on gentlemen :P


I'm pointing out that Elijah had to put a lot of faith on the fact something would happen, so unless you can prove that he was really an alien with a space ship that had rayguns, I think there is a good indication that God does exist.


Or that story isn't being told accurately. The lightning was probably unexpected, and the recounting of it was done later to include it being 'asked for' or however the story goes. That isn't unheard of in religious scripture (not exclusive to Christianity), assigning divine significance to natural events after the fact. Hell, its happening now, with crazy people making claims that God was punishing the Japanese for... whatever the Japanese do... with that earthquake, or whatever


_________________
Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do


Inuyasha
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24 Apr 2011, 11:46 pm

Vigilans wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
leejosepho wrote:
Philologos wrote:
I have suspected the "water" poured on may have had some petroleum / naphtha contennt .....

Lemme go grab some lighter fluid and a few pebbles and see whether Ruveyn can arrange for a bit of lightening ...


I don't recall it saying it was a stormy day, so now we have lightning coming out of the clear blue sky. And then it just happened to hit the offering location he had set up... There comes a point when coincidences are no longer coincidences.


Lightning has been known to strike far away from the actual region covered by the thundercloud. Usually the (relatively) recently discovered 'positive lighting' variety


While, that is true the odds of it hitting the offering place precisely when Elijah wanted it to are pretty astronomical.


Not too sure of all the specifics of the story myself. Just felt like adding that blue-sky lightning does happen. I am pretty interested by extreme weather. Anyways, carry on gentlemen :P


I'm pointing out that Elijah had to put a lot of faith on the fact something would happen, so unless you can prove that he was really an alien with a space ship that had rayguns, I think there is a good indication that God does exist.


Or that story isn't being told accurately. The lightning was probably unexpected, and the recounting of it was done later to include it being 'asked for' or however the story goes. That isn't unheard of in religious scripture (not exclusive to Christianity), assigning divine significance to natural events after the fact. Hell, its happening now, with crazy people making claims that God was punishing the Japanese for... whatever the Japanese do... with that earthquake, or whatever


And another possibility is that the story is entirely accurate, you can't dismiss that possibility and legitimately claim you're being objective.



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25 Apr 2011, 12:03 am

I don't believe in the supernatural. I'm more inclined to look at it from an anthropologists view and respect the belief but still see there being a rational (not magical) explanation


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Inuyasha
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25 Apr 2011, 12:06 am

Vigilans wrote:
I don't believe in the supernatural. I'm more inclined to look at it from an anthropologists view and respect the belief but still see there being a rational (not magical) explanation


There is a perfectly rational explanation, God does exist. Seriously, there are things that defy all rational explanation, times when the laws of physics seem to go out the window.



Last edited by Inuyasha on 25 Apr 2011, 12:07 am, edited 1 time in total.

Subotai
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25 Apr 2011, 12:06 am

Inuyasha wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
Inuyasha wrote:
leejosepho wrote:
Philologos wrote:
I have suspected the "water" poured on may have had some petroleum / naphtha contennt .....

Lemme go grab some lighter fluid and a few pebbles and see whether Ruveyn can arrange for a bit of lightening ...


I don't recall it saying it was a stormy day, so now we have lightning coming out of the clear blue sky. And then it just happened to hit the offering location he had set up... There comes a point when coincidences are no longer coincidences.


Lightning has been known to strike far away from the actual region covered by the thundercloud. Usually the (relatively) recently discovered 'positive lighting' variety


While, that is true the odds of it hitting the offering place precisely when Elijah wanted it to are pretty astronomical.


Not too sure of all the specifics of the story myself. Just felt like adding that blue-sky lightning does happen. I am pretty interested by extreme weather. Anyways, carry on gentlemen :P


I'm pointing out that Elijah had to put a lot of faith on the fact something would happen, so unless you can prove that he was really an alien with a space ship that had rayguns, I think there is a good indication that God does exist.


Or that story isn't being told accurately. The lightning was probably unexpected, and the recounting of it was done later to include it being 'asked for' or however the story goes. That isn't unheard of in religious scripture (not exclusive to Christianity), assigning divine significance to natural events after the fact. Hell, its happening now, with crazy people making claims that God was punishing the Japanese for... whatever the Japanese do... with that earthquake, or whatever


And another possibility is that the story is entirely accurate, you can't dismiss that possibility and legitimately claim you're being objective.


And another possibility is Hercules, son of god, did INDEED travel to Hades and capture Cerberus.



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25 Apr 2011, 12:07 am

Inuyasha wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
I don't believe in the supernatural. I'm more inclined to look at it from an anthropologists view and respect the belief but still see there being a rational (not magical) explanation


There is a perfectly rational explanation, God does exist.


That is fine for you but I don't believe in that sort of thing, and I don't consider 'God Did It' a rational explanation. But its not my job to argue about this, where the hell are the Strident Atheists? lol


_________________
Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do