Everybody Draw Muhammad Day (May 20) Coming Up

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Cenk Uygur has his say (this is from the 2010 Everybody Draw Muhammad Day event):

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OMz0aIM2_sM[/youtube]

I have some difference:

• A more important a rebuttal of the "racial cartoons = anti-Islam cartoons" is that being of a particular race is completely involuntary and doesn't come with the same overt intellectual baggage that being a member of a given religion does (i.e. being of a giving race doesn't deductively entail certain beliefs, attitudes, and visions of society).
• Cenk Uygur's tripolar classification of Muslims, I think, is a bit off. I certainly don't doubt that fundamentalists are sincere - all religious extremists, while believing in their God, still think their God mandates them to do the deity's dirty work.

I'd probably classify Muslims in North American countries more like this (and, yes, my percentage scheme is total speculation):

nominal Muslims -- Ultraliberal Muslims -- Liberal Muslims -- Moderate Muslims -- Mainstream Muslims -- Conservative Muslims -- Ultraconservative Muslims -- Fundamentalist Muslims -- Volent Fundamentalist Muslims

• Nominal Muslims: Really don't follow or even no most of the tenants of their religion. Pretty Westernized, largely middle to upper middle class, probably just self-declare as "Muslim" because that's what their parents were. Percentage of North American Muslims: 1-3%.
• Ultraliberal Muslims: Very leftwing social beliefs, support Gay Marriage, Abortion rights, women's rights, are pacificist, may support social democratic if not outright socialist economic systems, and tend to cherry-pick the "social justice" passages of the Qu'ran. Less strict on female headware. Probably make up no more than 5% of the North American Muslim population.
• Liberal Muslims: Generally, if vaguely, support liberal social policies. Social democratic to moderate on economics. Generally support Benazir Bhutto type headware. Tend to be from Professional Class Families and probably make up 10-20% of the North American Population (especially concentrated in Canada).
• Moderate Muslims: Tend to be pretty average, politically, while perhaps a bit more strict than moderate Muslims on headware and somewhat more conservativve on social issues than non-Muslims. Like most aforementioned groups, particularly dislike Islamist violence. Make up anywhere from 13-22% of the North American Muslim population.
• Mainstream Muslims: Generally pretty ignorant of their actual Holy Texts, but follow advice of Imams on spiritual matters. Mostly concerned with day to day living, but tend to be fairly more socially conservative than your average North American. Offended by overt blasphemy (Qu'ranic burning, Drawing Muhammad) but tend not to act on it. 25-35% of North American Muslim population.
• Conservative Muslims: Very strict on what women wear, support a hijab that completely covers the all head hair and firmly borders around the face, of plain design. While not sympathetic to terrorism, generally have much more grievances with the West than any of the aforementioned groups. Make up aywhere from 16-24% of the Muslim population. Slightly more likely to be male and older. Most likely working class or lower middle class. Populist when it comes to economics.
• Ultraconservative Muslims: Much deeper problems with the West than any of the aforementioned groups. Either very old Muslims or, paradoxically, new converts and young males. Very strict when it comes to "a women's place", religious misogyny apparent. Populist when it comes to economics. 7-9% of North American Muslim population.
• Fundamentalist Muslims: Very strict housheolds, either literal in interpreting Qu'ran or heavily influenced by reactionary clerics. Believes Jihad is a military concept, but not themselves a terrorist (though sympathetic to terrorism). May utter annonymous death threats to people throught the Internet. Probably holds radically communitarian views when it comes to economic organization. More likely to be a young male. About 1% of the North American Muslim Population
• Violent Fundamentalist Muslims: 0.0009% of the North American Muslim population. Very strict and misogynistic, quite like Fundamentalist when it comes to beliefs.

Last edited by Master_Pedant on 08 May 2011, 5:29 pm, edited 6 times in total.

That sounds exactly like what Jesus Christ would do.

Can you explain the origin of that line of thought - the one about being anti-islam = some form of racism? I don't understand why race is a part of the discussion, especially when black muslims, indian/S.E.Asian muslims, and honestly, even white muslims (sometimes, more so) feel the same anti-muslim bigotry that ones from the arab-middle east feel? Why is race an issue within the islamic community and it's supporters, and not so of Christianity which also has people of all colors. We don't assume racism when one is bashing english or hispanic or italian or korean christians, why does it come up, or at least the perception of it, on behalf of muslims and their supporters? The term is coined frequently with regards to Islamofacism / Islamophobia, so I thought I'd bring that up.

From my experiences in college, I think his - to use your words - "Tripolar Classification" of muslims is accurate, but not at the expense of yours being not accurate. I think the muslim classifications that you list are accurate, and can be found in the percentages you quote on campus. That said... the majority of them engage in group-think when it comes to discussions revolving Islam, all those classifications, at least in the way they react (and more importantly, vocalize their opinion) tend to trickle into one of those three options that he gives. I may be wrong or misreading something, so feel free to share insight on your experience.

It is very simple. Islam is NOT a race. It is not inherited genetically. It is learned.

It is no more race than being English speaking is a race.

ruveyn

It is very simple. Islam is NOT a race. It is not inherited genetically. It is learned.

It is no more race than being English speaking is a race.

ruveyn

Is it OK to tell jokes on May 20th? Because they will probably issue a fatwa if I post my picture.

I know it is not a race. But I remember 5 years back to the present, it is still brought up by lefty blogs, lefty pundits, lefty journals, lefties on campus, and I've heard it brought up by muslims as well (prominent ones on TV as well as ones on campus).

Perhaps they assigned the type of hate that Islamophobists have is similar to racist fervor... someone familiar with lefty or muslim community fill me in. It is still used regularly in when discussing muslim issues. Why are people quick to give anything with anti-islamic overtones the racist label? Either someone's reasoning on the topic made a connection to racism before cutting-off midthought, and then didn't bother to rethink this through, or I'm seriously missing something here.

Well, technically Cenk Uygur was trying to debunk the "Blasphemey is similar to racial caricatures" argument and so was I. But some can make an argument that certain depictions of Arab Muslims can have a racial quality and be based on broader xenophobia (which racism is a subset of).



I've generally known of a few liberal Muslims, the most conservative Muslim I know (who railed against how "disgusting" pork is) is someone in my extended family who converted. How much of it is simply the "converts tend to be more fanatical" aspect and how much genuinely reflects rigidity in the Islamic community I don't know.

Because anti-Islam is synonymous with being anti-Arab/Persian/Whatever to them. That's why they say it's racist.

Precisely. I don't think my bosnian friends would be at all amused by this stunt.

The girl commentator is a ditz who doesnt quite get it,and the guy doesnt get that she doesnt get it. Its maddening to watch! You want to throddle both of them.

The first thing out of her mouth was "drawings of moslems" and she had to be corrected that its "drawings of Muhammed". And the guy still didnt really expain the issue to her.Later she betrayed her ignorance again by trying to compare it to Whites drawing Blacks ( in some unflattering stereotyped way)- which doesnt have a damn thing to do with the issue.


In Islam you are forbidden to portray Muhammed. Its taking the Mosaic commandent of "thou shalt have no graven images" an inch farther. Supposidly if the prophet is given a portrait that would tempt to the faitful to succumb to idolatry.
Traditional paintings of Islamic history show mohammed as a hooded figure with no face as he leads multitudes of men with faces into battle or whatever.
Anthony Quinn played mohammed in a biopic film and with his face in shadow the whole way through. So drawing a picture, no matter how flattering, of Mohammed is a blasphemy.

So portraying Mohammed is not comparable to drawing blacks with big lips or whatever- its more comparable to the Mapplethorpe crusifix photograph. Its not about stereotyping. Its about blasphemy. Not that one is better or worse than the other, but thats the issue.

++++++++++++

But to change the subject slightly: though drawing mohammed is not the same as drawing racial cartoons saying that Islmaphobia is unconnected with racism is very niave.

Racial bigotry is often intertwined with other bigotries.
My mom talked about how folks in her childhood nieghborhood "wouldnt be seen talking to the Baptists" not because they had a problem with the theology of Baptism but because of class snobbery (the baptists were considered low class).

The first significant group of non protestants in america were the Irish. For a hundred years they were the only large group of catholics. So in America to be catholic was to be Irish ( and vice versa) and to hate Papism was to hate the Irish as a race. Racism and religous bigotry were one and the same ( the fact there were non Irish Catholics on other parts of the Planet didnt matter to either Irish nor to nonIrish americans). Only much latter when you had huge waves of Polish, Italian, Czech, and finnally, Hispanic immigrants in the 20th centurey to diversify and enlarge the american catholic population did race and Catholicism finnally get decoupled in the American mind.

In a white european country most muslims tend to be brown skinned, and a large proportion of brown skinned people tend to be muslim. So in such a situation its absurdly niave to assume that race and religous hostility dont overlap and dont reinforce each other. They may be intertwined, or they may not be. Either is possible.You cant assume either way.

In Canada, hostility towards Catholics in the 19th century was very connected to Francophobia - until subsequent waves of Immigration, most Canadian Roman Catholics were from Quebec and French-speaking.

But there still is a very racial quality to some of the "Muslims will conquer us" fear-mongering, particularly given few people realize how many Muslims are in Indonesia.

There's an increasingly-growing disturbing trend in European nations to call religions races,
and also to shame people out of "anti-religious" rhetoric (read: ethical and scientific criticisms of religious claims).


http://europenews.dk/en/node/13092

This is not entirely true. The currently accepted version of islam generally holds that this is the case, but in the past it wasn't always the case. Early muslims could and did paint depictions of Muhammed.

But that doesn't make it any less offensive to go out of your way to annoy the ones who are alive today just because they believe in a different version of a diety than you do.



Except in Bosnia/Herzegovina, and Turkey.

The ashkenazi buttholes in israel aren't helping that situation at all, either.

Of course Canada has the Quebec issue [who asked the English to take over, anyway?]. But the country downstairs was not exactly Catholic loving in the 19th century. You did not even have to be a Baltimore Lutheran [one of my grandma;'s cousins married a Catholic, horrors]. You take an English and Scots Anglican through Presbyterian axis, factor in Irish immigration and Eyetalians flooding the cities [the dread Black Hand!] - and except in Lord Baltimore's colony [except in the German enclaves] anf Lou'siana. Catholics are not far off Jews and for the same reasons.

Do not forget all the "how can a papist get elected" stuff regarding Kennedy.