What will it take to convert you from atheism?

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joerojas87
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24 May 2011, 1:01 am

If a christian can give a rational explanation for the following: If god who is believed to be by virtually all religions, an all powerful and all knowing being, then by those virtues god already knows what the future holds for us because he knows everything. Despite this knowledge, god created the initial conditions for us from which suffering would inevitably occur; regardless if we believe we have free will, from gods perspective everything is deterministic. God created a world in which he already knew would lead to pain and suffering. Also, this would mean god knew that most of us would die sinners and inevitably burn in the hell in which he himself created. Basically, god created a world for us with the certainty of suffering, and a hell in which most of us would burn in for all eternity. Are some of us destined by god to suffer either on earth or in hell. How could such a benevolent god be so evil?



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24 May 2011, 1:09 am

If God Himself appeared to me all glowing with lightning flashing around His head the portrayal of God in the Bible makes Him so vicious and emotionally uncontrolled and stupid I could only assume this fearsome creature before me was from a flying saucer and was an alien with an enormous sense of humor.



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24 May 2011, 1:23 am

one could argue that God is not in fact Omniscient with everything... He knows and is in tune with everything in the Universe except for the human being, and specifically the human future.

God knows the universe because this law giver imposed the laws by which the natural world follows, from the ability of cells to metastasize into cancer to the birth of a child to gravity, etc.

What he did not know was the full capability of the human being. There are three inroads in the bible noting that God was not fully aware about our destructive behavior and what he did to try and deal with it:

    1.) He created us with a conscience as noted in the Cain and Able narrative. That wasn't enough, and he was deeply saddened.
    2.) He wiped us all out and started anew with his creation. But we don't relate to nonhumans and continued with our rottenness.
    3.) He then came down and spent time with a people called the Jews and they would be he vehicle on this earth to take forth ethical monotheism and make the world a better place.


This God is not all-knowing when it comes to the Human Future. If we wipe ourselves out, so be it. God had no hand in it as he said he would not destroy us again, so we are, as you will, partners with God. This also differs with Islam in that God is not an activist God there to play a role in every aspect of your life all the time. I believe in Islam, or heard from someone, that the belief is God knows everything and everything happens for a reason, like if you fall off the back of a truck and break your arm, there is reason within that. I don't believe that is the case, and don't think the text supports it.


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24 May 2011, 1:53 am

what would it take to convert me?
1)evidence that prayer has some beneficial effect. If you're going to claim, 'oh, studies have found that it does!' find a specific study that shows a positive correlation between prayer and outcome and which has not been discredited and withdrawn due to falsification of data and/or fraud on the part of the author.

2)evidence that adherents of one religion are more fortunate than socioeconomically, geographically similar adherents of a different religion, independent of conflating factors like beneficial habits.

3)evidence that people who commit atrocities in the name of god are statistically more likely to be quickly removed from the gene pool or otherwise neutralized through 'acts of god.'

here's where you say, 'oh, but you have to have faith!'



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24 May 2011, 4:15 am

The same burden of proof being met by substantial empirical or analytical evidence
which theists would require before believing in the almighty FSM,
who hath fondled me lovingly many a-time with Her al dente noodly divinity
and left as testament to Her carbaciousness several lovely spring blouses,
forever-marked by vigorously-scrubbed, faint stains made by the sacred pasta sauce of mushroom, onion, and basil.

:drunken:



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24 May 2011, 5:35 am

What would it take to convert me? Surgical removal of my brain. No, wait, even the empty space where brain cells used to reside would hold enough intellect to know that religion is just plain dumb. :wink:



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24 May 2011, 5:40 am

Some divinities would supposedly know what it will take.


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24 May 2011, 5:41 am

ValentineWiggin wrote:
The same burden of proof being met by substantial empirical or analytical evidence
which theists would require before believing in the almighty FSM,
who hath fondled me lovingly many a-time with Her al dente noodly divinity
and left as testament to Her carbaciousness several lovely spring blouses,
forever-marked by vigorously-scrubbed, faint stains made by the sacred pasta sauce of mushroom, onion, and basil.

:drunken:

Image


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DentArthurDent
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24 May 2011, 5:49 am

The discovery of Yahweh's signature amongst the Norwegian fjord's

Or

Many layers of evidence which are consistent with creation, including but not exclusively strong evidence of irreducible complexity, credible evidence for biblical assertions such as the flood, of humans living to around 1000 years old,remnants of chariots - complete with horse and human remains- found under the red sea: etc. etc. In short I require highly credible evidence which refutes scientific discoveries and instead supports the God hypotheses.

As to the cosmological argument, I see this as the last refuge of people like our own Mr Orwell, who upon realisation of the almost infinite fallibility of the biblical account of creation and God, retreat too; OK we will grant that the earth IS billions of years old, we DID evolve from an as yet not fully understood primordial soup, and that creationists are borderline insane. However atheist's, they ask, explain if you can the apparent contradiction of your lack of belief with the 1st Law of Thermodynamics. To which I would reply: we don't fully understand our universe, but that lack of understanding should not cause a rational being to invent a supernatural one.

What I find strange (as demonstrated by the OP's question) is why so many people believe something that has absolutely no supporting evidence especially given the associated evidence tends to argue against their belief. Yet these believers continue to ask non believers in a slightly bemused fashion "why don't you believe in God".

It distresses me that by this stage in our evolution/knowledge the burden of 'proof' still seems to rest with the disbelievers in God rather than the believers.


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24 May 2011, 6:10 am

LKL wrote:
what would it take to convert me?
1) evidence that prayer has some beneficial effect ...

"And Yahuah said, 'I have indeed seen the oppression of My people who are in Mitsrayim (Egypt),
and I have heard their cry because of their slave-drivers, for I know their sorrows.
And I have come down to deliver them from the hand of the Mitsrites, and
to bring them up from that land to a good and spacious land, to a land flowing with milk and honey,
to the place of the Kena'anites and the H'ittites and the Amorites and the Perizzites and the H'iwwites and the Yeb'usites.'"
(Exodus 3:7-8)

LKL wrote:
2) evidence that adherents of one religion are more fortunate than socioeconomically, geographically similar adherents of a different religion, independent of conflating factors like beneficial habits.

Who was, is and will ever be the source of those "beneficial habits" you seem to so readily disqualify?!

LKL wrote:
3) evidence that people who commit atrocities in the name of god are statistically more likely to be quickly removed from the gene pool or otherwise neutralized through 'acts of god.'

Why do you demand/expect/assume "quickly" there?

LKL wrote:
here's where you say, 'oh, but you have to have faith!'

Personally, I definitely do place my own modicum of faith in the most-high god for all of the above ...

... and yet, of course, my own actions will convince no one else of anything other than my own commitment to them ...

... and all of that brings us back around to the beginning of your questions with more to ponder the next time through!


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24 May 2011, 6:38 am

I can't name anything off of the top of my head. I don't think God would create a world very similar to this one, so.... while I can't say it is impossible, I certainly don't see an easily identified legitimate method to change my mind.



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24 May 2011, 6:44 am

Define what is 'God' first?



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24 May 2011, 6:59 am

01001011 wrote:
Define what is 'God' first?

Quote:
"Much to our relief, we discovered we did not need to consider another's conception of God. Our own conception, however inadequate (or limited), was sufficient ...
"When, therefore, we speak to you of God, we mean your own conception of God."
("A.A.", the book, pages 46-47)


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24 May 2011, 7:48 am

Lack of proof that something exists does not mean it doesn't exist.

There are probably billions of planets out there that we can't prove exist (at least not yet).
That doesn't mean we should deny even the possibility that the universe continues beyond what we can currently detect.

I'm not saying a god or gods exists. I'm just saying it's egotistical to think human science has anywhere near all the answers at this point.



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24 May 2011, 7:48 am

To put it simply, the Christians do not have one god, but they have many who all share the same moniker.

1) One of them created the universe known to cosmologists and school students.

2) One of them is described in Genesis.

3) One of them is based roughly on the one described in Genesis, but Genesis is taken in this case to be an allegory for a storyline that is more believable to a scientifically minded individual.

4) One of them is a person you can say prayers to when you are feeling desperate or occasionally curse.

5) One of them sends you to Heaven if you are good or sends you to Hell if you are bad.

6) One of them takes you to Heaven whether you are good or bad as long as you think he exists, and you only go to Hell if you are really evil and terrible.

7) One of them makes you good if you swear eternal allegiance to him because you are spiritually reborn as a result of doing so. This is the one who supposedly gives people a "new lease on life" or a "second chance" after a "life of/in sin."

8) One of them can cure just about any illness if you pray hard enough, but it can never be proven that this has ever actually happened because supposedly concrete evidence of God's existence thereby negates his existence. But people who believe in this one attest with absolute certainty that this one actually does exist and actually does do any form of healing imaginable.

9) One of them is an excuse for people to get together in a building and be civilized to each other for a while.

For a Christian talking to a Christian, they all exist at the same time. For a Christian talking to an atheist, only the ones that happen to be convenient at the time actually exist, and the one being discussed changes with the flow of conversation. This is part of the reason that a lot of atheists resent Christians and see them as dishonest.

And if you want to get a mentally healthy, socially normal human being interested in religion, #9 is your best shot, most likely. Most people who have fairly good mental health would take no objection whatsoever to taking up with some nice folk in the community in a non-threatening, kid-friendly atmosphere where nobody is allowed to curse, call each other names, be mean or create drama. It's a pretty straightforward arithmetic, and Christians have been using this method of conversion for centuries, with enormous success. In fact, I think that part of the reason Christianity is losing popularity lately is that they have strayed a lot from this method.

Anyway, that's my view.



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24 May 2011, 7:56 am

MarketAndChurch wrote:
one could argue that God is not in fact Omniscient with everything... He knows and is in tune with everything in the Universe except for the human being, and specifically the human future.

God knows the universe because this law giver imposed the laws by which the natural world follows, from the ability of cells to metastasize into cancer to the birth of a child to gravity, etc.

What he did not know was the full capability of the human being. There are three inroads in the bible noting that God was not fully aware about our destructive behavior and what he did to try and deal with it:

    1.) He created us with a conscience as noted in the Cain and Able narrative. That wasn't enough, and he was deeply saddened.
    2.) He wiped us all out and started anew with his creation. But we don't relate to nonhumans and continued with our rottenness.
    3.) He then came down and spent time with a people called the Jews and they would be he vehicle on this earth to take forth ethical monotheism and make the world a better place.

This God is not all-knowing when it comes to the Human Future. If we wipe ourselves out, so be it. God had no hand in it as he said he would not destroy us again, so we are, as you will, partners with God. This also differs with Islam in that God is not an activist God there to play a role in every aspect of your life all the time. I believe in Islam, or heard from someone, that the belief is God knows everything and everything happens for a reason, like if you fall off the back of a truck and break your arm, there is reason within that. I don't believe that is the case, and don't think the text supports it.


This by the way is what I believe is called the Socian heresy :lol:
its better than Calvinism I'll give you that.


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