Jesus renounces Christianity

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I have been to the trip to Israel for 10 days and we once went to the museum and we were looking at the picture of Last Supper, or at least that is how it looked like. Basically Jesus was sitting at the side of the table, and was dressed in white. Then there was rabbi that was sitting in the middle of the table.

The museum guide told us that actually it wasn't last supper even though it looked that way. Instead, it was a picture of what some Jews believe would happen in the end times. Most Jews believe Jesus is a fraud. Some say he didn't exist, others say he was false prophet, still others say he was a good Rabbi but he never made any claims that were attributed to him, etc. The opinions vary, but most Jews basically deny that Jesus is Messiah, one way or the other.

So anyway, according to the point of view of a particular group of the Jwes behind the picture, Jesus will come back, learn the errors of his ways and renounce Chrisitanity in favor of Judaism. Even though in that picture he sits at the corner of the table which SEEMS like the most important place, actually the most important place is the center of a table, which is where rabbi is sitting. Jesus is merely one of the guests. At the moment of his renouncement of Christianity, he will lose his stigmata and that is why you couldn't see any stigmata at the picture.

So the guide basically left off at that. But I am having some of my own thoughts on that. Somehow, I can't help but note that the corner of the table where Jesus was sitting can STILL be viewed as a central place of a table. And he was also dressed into white, and still had this solemn look in his face. While the guide didn't explain it, I have my own theory of why they drew it this way.

You see, when the soldier is killed in the battle, he isn't falling right away. Insted, he does a "death dance", where he tries his best to pretend to be alive. So I believe that Jesus, too, was doing a type of a death dance where he pretended to continue to hold onto this religion, even though he himself renounced it. The fact that he renounced it doesn't change what I am saying becuase a lot of people who commit suicide do a death dance, too. Why? Probably because they committed suicide and then regretted it after it was too late. Probably the same happened with Jesus.

By the way, when a soldier does a death dance, his enemy isn't trying to kill him any more. Why? Because the enemy already knows he will die. So in a sense, it is a BAD thing the enemy is NOT killing him, because this only confirms the total hopelessness of the situaiton and that there is no slimmest chance to live. So I can almost see a soldier doing a death dance WANTING the enemy to continue to try to kill him. So, imagine the following scenario how the soldier goes to the edge of an outburst where he pleads with the enemy "look I am still alive, please try to kill me" and the enemy is like "no way, you are going to die in few seconds, you are hopeless, and I have better things to do".

By the way, Jewish holocaust might provide much more vivid examples of this sort of thing. Appart from gas chambers, there was something else Nazi did in order to kill Jews. They would take them to the hospital and administer to them a kind of slow acting medicine that would take an hour or so to kill them. So, during that hour, no one is giving them any more poison because they already know that they have giving them enough of it, even though they are still alive. Now, the fact that they have AN HOUR as opposed to a soldier who does slow dance for only few minutes, should give them plenty of straws to hold into. But NO WAY. If tehre were ANY straws, they would be forced to get more medicine, and they don't! So, I can almost hear them pleading with the German doctors "don't you see we are still alive, why aren't you giving us more poison?" And the doctors say "You don't need a poison. You dead, Jew"

Perhaps the same thing happened with Jesus. Here he was, right in front of a rabbi and all the Jews around, doing an open blashpemy by being dressed in white and sitting at the corner of the table that appears to be the most important spot to anyone who weren't told otherwise. Yet, no one tries to oppose him at all. Don't you see how he is totally frustrated by that LACK of opposition? Don't you see how he feels that the very FACT that they are leaving him on his own shows that there is NOTHING he can possibly do to recover his case, so that they don't even have to try to oppose him just in case?

On any event, just to change a subject, I am Christian. However, I do believe that this picture might well come true. Except that it won't be Jesus but rather it will be antichrist doing that. It is already a familiar concept that followers of false religions might actually come up with true prophecies especially if antichrist is part of them. This is just satan's way of preparing people of believing in ultimate Deception. So, perhaps, this passover scene WILL happen, with antichrist being a player rather than Jesus. The devil gave that vision ahead of time to the painter in order to deceive the Jews into thinking that they know the "truth" ahead of time.


Now, why would the jesus - imposter renounce his own religion? Here is why. The mission of antichrist is to draw both Christians AND Jews astray. Now, if antichrist will claim to be Jesus, there is no way he can draw Jews astray since Jews don't believe in Jesus on teh first place, which means they won't follow his imposter either. On the other hand, he has to claim to be Jesus in order to draw Christians astray. So, the solution to this problem is as follows:

He will have a two step plan. During the first step, he will pretend to be Jesus and make all the Christians follow him. Jews still would NOT be following him, and instead they will be following their own Messiah, Jewish rabbi. Naturally, their rabbi will both denounce the Jesus 2000 years ago, as well as the Jesus-imposter in front of him. So Jesus imposter will wait untill he will get all the Christian followers. Once he did, he would move right onto step 2.

Step 2 would be that he will still say that he is Jesus, but he will all of a sudden admit that he have made a mistake 2000 years ago and now he renounces it, and that after some thinking he realized that he is not a true Messiah after all. He will then convert to Judaism, and claim that the rabbi whom the Jews follow is the true Messiah. But, since he already gained the trust of his Christian followers, they will simply follow his example, convert to Judaism and follow the Jewish rabbi, since that is what their ex-hero have done.

Now, we know that in revelation 13 there are two beasts involved:

A noteable thing is that the second beast orders people to worship a first beast instead of himself, which might look a little surprising. Well, the scenario that I have just proposed answers that question. The first beast is the Jewish rabbi. The second beast is Jesus imposter who admitted to being wrong. And we just seen Jesus imposter ordering his followers to worship the rabbi (i.e. a first beast).

Now, why is rabbi a first beast and christ imposter a second one? Well, since at the end of the day Christians will convert to Judaism as opposed to Jews converting to Christianity, the Judaism is going to be the ultimate deception. Therefore, what christ imposter was doing untill his convertion to Christianity doesn't count because yes his followers were deceived (from a small d) but they weren't Deceived (from a capital d) YET, they were only preparing to be Deceived. On the other hand, the followers of the Jewish rabbi were Deceived (capital d) from the start. In other words, Jewish rabbi Deceived his followers from day 1, while the christ imposter Deceived them only in his switching from step 1 to step 2, which happened few years later. Therefore, the rabbi is first and christ imposter is second.

Now, we have to explain why the second beast was exercising all that power. Well, a thing to realize is that while the first beast is a religious power, the second one is POLITICAL. So, even though the second one renounced his religion, he still made a great political leader due to the fact that his ex-followers were still listening to his every word. After all, the only reason they converted to Judaism is that he did. So, the first beast, who is Jewish rabbi, realized that from the point of view of uniting people it would be the most helpful to elect the "jesus" guy to be a leader of global community.

This might seem a little surprising, given that Jews don't want to have ANYTHING to do with Jesus, and if he renounces his own religion it will only prove their point all the more. But I can easilly see how it can be different in this case. The fact that he renounced his own religion made him a leaving weapon against Christianity, and thus the rabbis might actually want him to hold public office for that exact reason. After all, the more world attention he gets, the more it gets engrained into everyone's head. If he only renounced his religion once and hten no one heard of him, then people would easilly realize that perhaps he is an imposter, since plenty of ppl, such as Jim Jones, claimed to be Jesus. But if they get to see him every day on every newspaper calling himself Jesus, it would be difficult to question his credentials simply because they are too used to them.

So perhaps that is another reason why on that photo he was dressed in white and sitting in the most important place on the table. After all, he is a world leader and that is how the world leaders act. But then the question is why did he do a death dance? Even if he renounced his religion shouldn't he be proud of his office? Well, what you have to realize is that the picture is about passover (they did it on purpose to make it parallel to the last supper one). So, the people who attend passover are Jews. Among the Jews, he isn't that popular at all. In fact he serves as a symbol of his own failure. His supporters are the ex-christians who used to follow him, not Jews. The Jews only want him in the office as a tool to get the community united AND ingrain all his religious failures into the heads of everyone who watches him on TV.

Now, didn't I say that his followers too converted into Judaism after his own conversion? Okay, lets slow down a little. According to Jewish believes, if you are not Jewish by birth, you don't have to convert to Judaism unless you want to, and even if you do want to the rabbis try to discourage you by turning you down three times. The only thing a gentile is supposed to do is to become a Noahide by following 7 laws that the Jews claim were given to Noah after the flood. These laws are not found anywhere in the bible, which means that as a Christian I should regard them as a false teaching. However, they might well be part of New World Order especially since they have ALREADY been passed in US congress: http://www.thewatcherfiles.com/noahide_laws.htm

So, going back to my point, when jesus imposter will point his followers to the rabbi, the rabbi will NOT ask them to convert to Judaism. Instead, he will ask them to become Noahide. This means that they will NOT be present in the passover celebration. The people at the passover will be precisely the minority that look down on him behind all the warm handshakes. Given that Jews constitute a small minority, this won't change any of his political powers.

HOWEVER, it WILL be enough to make him totally ashamed. After all, now that he believes in Judaism, he will believe the talmudic claims of gentiles being equal to cattle. So, who cares if billions of cattle admires him. The important thing is that he is being looked down by few Jews, the few ppl whose opinion really matters. As far as politics, this is just a way of manipulating a cattle given that due to cattle being so many it is a physical threat so you better make them have as much of a vote as people do just for a safety purposes. So, as a means of manipulating this cattle, the jewish "people" chose to put him in an office. So then how is it any more prestigious than, say, being elected in a circus and given full authority over all the animals involved?

So, in light of all these thoughts, Jesus wishes to re-claim the religion he just renounced and to try to win his Jewish followers. But oh well too late. In the past, at least there were few Messianic Jews who believed in Jesus. But now that he renounced it himself, his ex-religion has ZERO followers. So, OF COURSE he is desperate, and thus plays a role trying to pretend to be something that he isn't. But the Jews pay no attention to him, and provide no opposition because they knew that since he just commited suicide, what he is doing now is simply a death dance.

Now, you might ask me that even if it is all true, why would I put it into the mouth of the person who drew the photo, given that he is Jewish and therefore doesn't believe in any of the anitchrist prophecies or whatever. Well, I don't. As far as the painter is concerned, he believes that it will be a real Jesus renouncing his own religion rather than an imposter. However, as a Christian, I believe it will be an imposter.

I also believe that even though he got that part wrong, he could well have been right in foreseeing the scenary itself (with a different player of course). Why? Well, we all know that the antichrist, whoever he is going to be, should be fulfillment of ALL religions in order to gain all followers. In order for this to happen, all religions need to have some true visions about what he will do ahead of time. How does it happen? Well, satan being a supernatural being knows the future and he is the one who inspires these visions. This can be supported by Deut 13:2 which says that the vision of a FALSE prophet discussed "comes to pass". So, in the case of the painting, satan inspired the painter to see that scene of antichrist sitting at passover after having renounced his own religion, and the painter of course made a mistake by saying it is real jesus doing that.


By the way, I think there is an old testament passage that predicts either Jesus OR one of his imposters renouncing themseelves. So, if you are Jewish, you can use that passage and claim it is real Jesus. If you are Christian, you can say it is antichrist who is going to do it. But, whoever it might be, here is what will happen:




Clearly, being a "husbandman" is clearly in line with being a carpenter which Jesus was. Having "wounds in his hands" is clearly the crucifixion marks (either the real ones or the false stigmata that satan will supernaturally put on antichrist). And why does he call them "my friends" despite the fact that they are the ones who wounded him? Well, once he renounces Christianity, he converts to Judaism, hence his ex-murderers (i.e. Jews) become his friends.

Within the context of Judaism, the interpretation would be real Jesus renouncing his religion. On the other hand, as a Chrisitan, I believe this is going to be antichrist. Now, the question is WHEN will antichrist say these words? According to standart Christian teaching, this is going to happen when the real Jesus returns. However, I don't agree with it. After all, when he is asked what are the wounds, he is STILL claiming to be a real guy since he says that the Jews wounded him 2000 years ago. This clearly means that the real Jesus didn't come back yet since he gets away with taht deception. So, the only explanation that I came up with of why he does it is the story that I have in this post. In particular, his conversion to Judaism is part of a bigger plan of joining his own Christian followers with the Jewish followers of a rabbi.

Now, given that the religion in whose favor he was converted is equally false one, it might seem a little bit puzzling of why from the tone of the above passage it is a doing of a true God to make him ashamed. The answer is that God was USING the false system of the first beast (the rabbi) in order to punish a second beast (the christ-imposter). It often happends when it comes to God's punishment through "bad luck" that it starts off from an evil person sincerely thinking that what he is doing is going to help him, and then he later finds out that his own plans have distroyed him.

So that is exactly what happened with christ imposter. He was sincerely thinking that he got a great idea that once he renounces his own religion in favor of judaism, he will finally unify both groups in order to get a whole banana. But, after doing it, he is only disappointed to find that his exact action only lead to even more of hidden disrespect on a side of a Jews in a sense that now they have it "case closed" where their side had "won". And thats why he now dances a "death dance" trying to stay alive despite the fact that suicide have been his own decision.

Now, just to re-emphasize the point I was trying to make, when evil people try to do something that they think will work only to see how it doesn't work, it is often God's way of punishing them. So, what I am trying to say is that God basically inspired him to make this wrong move in order to achieve his ultimate goal of making him ashamed of his own religion. And that is why the above quoted passage is written from God's perspective.

As far as God using his own enemy (a rabbi) to achieve that purpose, it is perfectly scriptural too. After all, according to Rev 17:16, 17 the "beast" will be used in order to kill the "whore" of Babylon because God was using his enemy (a beast) as a means of punishing another enemy. So, according to this line of thought, it is possible that the beast is Judaism, while the whore is apostate Christianity. Since beast is the ultimate world ruller, the Judaism is an ultimate end time religion. And, according to Rev 17:16, 17 beast is being used in order to punish the whore. The way it is being done is that christ imposter is now ashamed of his religion precisely because of the Jewish disrespect.

Now, why does the passage says that all false prophets are ashamed of their vision, given that the rabbi is still alive and well? Well, rabbi only has few more years untill real Jesus returns and will destroy him with a breadth of his mouth. Of course the means of disruction of rabbi are going to be different from the way christ imposter was put down, but on a grand scheme of things both is about God achieving his ultimate purpose. So that was a perspective of a passage.

The other question one might have is how come in the verses that go before that passage, there is a fountain of truth and a description of everyone being righteous, given that according to my story beast kingdom is both before and after that episode? The answer is that even though most people will be deceived, there will be two witnesses who will teach teh truth but then in the middle tribulation will be murdered by antichrist. After their death, there will be 144000 Jews who will also be teaching the truth. So, the two witnesses and/or 144000 Jews are the "fountain of truth". The depiction of righteous ppl is the depiction of their followers.

Granted, these righteous people are a SMALL minority on a grand scheme of things. But they are basically lumped together with all the righteous in the world-to-come in the same way as the false christ-s renouncement of his religion is being lumped together with everyone else's renouncement that will only follow few years down the line. Basically God lumps together things that are part of the same purpose. So, the "firstfruits" of righteousness are there on earth BEFORE false christ renounces his religion, which is why they are in the beginning of a passage. And they are seen as part of bigger picture of what will happen later, which is why they are worth mentioning. Likewise, when false christ renounces himself, it is only him doing that while rabbi is still alive and well. But given that rabbi is GOING to do the same few years later, the event of false christ's resign is again seen as a foreshaddow of things to come and hence is mentioned as part of bigger picture of God's victory.

dude there's no way im reading that. i think if anything jesus was not about organized religion but more of a relationship with god.

TL;DR

Okay I weren't talking about organized religion. What I meant was that he renounces himself as savior.

I did read it all Roman a bit long though.

I think Your Beast theory is a bit far fetched.

Why would Jesus commit suicide? Was He not put to death by others not Himself?

Why would Jesus renounce Judaism then come back and renounce Chrstianity in the end?

By suicide I didn't mean literally kill himself. Rather it was a FIGURE OF SPEECH to say that he will declare himself to be wrong as opposed to waiting for someone else to do it for him.

Likewise, death dance is also a metaphore. While ppl who do literal death dance try to stay alive after being killed, the death dance that Jesus does has to do with trying to re-claim his status after having already declared himself to be wrong.




Because in the eyes of the Jews he was wrong to start with. So, God will force him to admit his mistake.

On the other hand, as a Christian, I would say that antichrist might be the one doing the above trick simply in order to fulfill the false vision that Jews had and also to force his Christian followers to join the Jews and ultimately make it into one world religion.

dude the mark of the beast and the anti-christ in the bible was ment for the emporer nero. it doesn't mean anything today.

Good point! Totally agree!

Some prophecies have double fulfillment. For example, Matthew 24 was talking both about the time of disruction of the temple in 70 AD and also about the end times which we are still waiting for. In light of the parallel between 70 AD and end times, Nero was "a type" of antichrist that is yet to come. I know that Nero isn't the only guy since we didn't see Millenium comming after his death.

So God is going make Jesus admit the Christianity is a mistake?

There have many Antichrists just read 1 John 2:18.

I never said I believed it. The concept of Jesus renouncing Christianity is something that a painter of that picture in museum believed. Given that he was Jewish and Jews don't beleive in Jesus, it makes sense that HE believed that. Now, as for me, I simply took that picture and came up with a bunch of my own elaborations of it, such as "death dance", etc. After all, I am allowed to write stories, even if I don't believe in them.

The only part I consider possible is BEAST doing it while pretending to be Jesus.



Okay, just replace the word "antichrist" with the word "beast" and then there will be only two of them.

Dude... we're just playing a 2000 year old game of telephone. Who knows what these people originally meant!!

TO CLARIFY...

1. Some people believe Jesus will return to renounce Christianity -- Makes no sense whatsoever. Why? He's basically renouncing himself if He does that.

2. You're a Christian and therefore don't believe what you just reported -- Good. Great to hear that. So what's the point of this thread...letting us know some of the rumors going around? I appreciate it and might come back later to re-read this, try to understand it more.

3. Jews don't believe Christ is the Messiah -- OK, you're 1/2 right on that one. There are a lot more "Messianic Jews" than you think. That is, lots of Jews who DO believe He is the Messiah.

PRAISE THE NAME OF Y'SHUA HAMESHIAC

Yours in Christ,
aspie4jc

Yes he does. According to their belief, God makes him ashamed of his ways and forces him to renounce himself.

This is also the point of the part of the post where I am talking about him doing "death dance" after having "committed suicide". These are figures of speach to say that he renounces himself (hence the suicide) and afterwards desperately tries to act like he is still something when he is nothing by sitting at the corner of the table all dressed up (i.e. death dance).



a)One point of this is taht I found that picture where Jesus is all dressed up after having renounced himself to be quite amusing. Hence, for amusement purposes I decided to elaborate on it. Its much like when someone comes up with a horror movie they aren't believing the scenario actually happened, but they came up with it anyway. Likewise, I don't believe that Jesus will renounce himself since I know he is true, but I still find it amusing to envision such scenario.

b)Even though I don't believe Jesus will renounce himself, I do believe it is possible that antichrist who ONLY PRETENDS to be Jesus will do so. After all, according to Zec 13 SOMEONE who looks like Jesus (i.e. with "wounds in his hands") will renounce himself. So this might well be antichrist and the wounds on his hands are false stigmata done by satan. But since he pretends to be Jesus he will lie that they are from crucifixion, hence the statement that "he was beaten at the house of his friends". And he calls them "friends" because he just converted to Judaism so they became his friends.



When I was saying "jews" I meant "traditional Jews".

On any event, I know the stats. The total number of Jews is 14-20 million. The number of Messianic Jews is 200 thousand, that is only counting the Jews who strictly subscribe to Messianic Judaism. Now if I include the Jews that subscribe to mainstream christian denominatinos such as Catholic and Protestant (non-messianic) then the total number of Jews subscribing to some form of Christianity is 500 thousand.

Not unlike Frank Peretti's book The Visitation

"At that time if anyone says to you, 'Look, here is the Christ!' or, 'There he is!' do not believe it. For false Christs and false prophets will appear and perform great signs and miracles to deceive even the elect—if that were possible. See, I have told you ahead of time. So if anyone tells you, 'There he is, out in the desert,' do not go out; or, 'Here he is, in the inner rooms,' do not believe it." --Matt. 24:23-26 (NIV)



OK, got it. Just wasn't clear that you knew about Messianic Jews.

Yah, that is what I was thinking of. I was inspired by the idea of antichrist, and Matt 24 is one of the well known chapters that talk about it.



Of course I know about Messianic Jews, I am one of them.