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Dox47
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10 Dec 2014, 2:40 am

So I thought of this as sort of a thread "game" for PPR, post articles that exemplify Poe's Law, which is basically that absent a clear marking as satire, it's impossible to create a parody of extremism that won't be mistaken for the real thing. This originated as applying to a creationist forum, but it's really pretty universally applicable.

I'll start off with this gem from Salon, which for left wing Poe articles is almost cheating:

http://www.salon.com/2013/10/05/the_leg ... nd_racist/

Quote:
This year marks the 15th anniversary of the release of “The Legend of Zelda: Ocarina of Time.” Critics frequently laud the Nintendo 64 title as the greatest video game ever. And yet the ways it deals with class, race, gender and animal rights are all deeply problematic.

Some readers may take criticism of “Ocarina” as dismissal of the game. But this isn’t the case. As Feminist Frequency blogger Anita Sarkeesian says, “Remember that it’s both possible and even necessary to simultaneously enjoy media while also being critical of its more problematic or pernicious aspects.”

Because games’ technological capabilities have increased so rapidly since “Ocarina” was released, I suspect the title’s reputation is somewhat inflated due to nostalgia of critics of a certain age. But it’s a nostalgia I share. There is no game with which I have more fond memories. So criticism here should be interpreted as loyal opposition.

The game’s perspective on class issues can best be seen in its portrayal of the Kakariko carpenters and the wealthy family in the House of Skulltulla.

The relationship between the self-described “boss” of the carpenters and those he calls “my workers,” appears to be one of a guild member and apprentices or journeymen. The boss refers to himself as a master craftsman, and says the workers were hired by the royal family to improve the village. Karl Marx described this relationship as one of “oppressor and oppressed,” comparing it to that of “freeman and slave, patrician and plebeian, (and) lord and serf.”

“Ocarina” portrays the apprentices or journeymen as lazy and shiftless, and the boss as the only one willing to work. “Young men these days don’t have any ambition,” the boss says. “Do you know what I mean, kid? My workers are just running aimlessly around the village, and they’re not making any progress at all … Even my own son doesn’t have a job, and he just wanders around all day! They’re all worthless, I tell you!”

Some may interpret the fate of the wealthy family, who are transformed into spiderlike creatures, in the House of Skulltulla as a condemnation of an exploitive class system, but that would be a mistake.

“Folks around here tell of a fabulously rich family that once lived in one of the houses in this village,” an elderly character in Kakariko confides. “But they say that the entire family was cursed due to their greed! Who knows what might happen to those who are consumed by greed.”

By focusing on the greed of individuals, the game ignores how private property incentivizes and even mandates such behavior. And with this moralizing focus comes a belief that society’s economic ills are intractable because of humanity’s flawed nature.

The racial, ethnic and religious traits of the “good characters” and the “bad characters” within the game also demonstrate a certain xenophobia. All of the good characters, such as the Hylians and Kokiri, are white. In contrast, all of the bad characters, such as the thieving Gerudo and their king, Ganondorf, have brown skin. The Gerudo live in the desert, and in case it wasn’t clear what real-life group of people they are based on, the original Gerudo symbol is strongly reminiscent of the Islamic star and crescent.

The title’s perspective on sex is arguably summarized in an advertisement for “Ocarina,” which asks, “Willst thou get the girl? Or play like one?” The game utilizes a damsel-in-distress trope that suggests women are weak and in need of male protection. Just like in every other game in the series, Princess Zelda is incapacitated and in need of rescue from the central character, Link. The repeated use of this sexist cliché helps to, as Sarkeesian says, “normalize extremely toxic, patronizing, and paternalistic attitudes.”

For a portion of the game’s plot, Zelda is represented as an imposing warrior. But, as Sarkeesian points out, she is only able to achieve this disguised as a man and she’s kidnapped within minutes of revealing her true identity.

Sure, Link is also at times injured or captured. At one point, for instance, he’s locked in a Gerudo jail cell. But, as Sarkeesian says, Link, and male protagonists in general, usually get themselves out of the situation. And that ability to overcome obstacles is integral to their development as heroic characters.

Link also rescues other female characters who arguably fall into damsel trope, such as Saria, a friend from his Kokiri childhood, and Ruto, princess of the aquatic Zoras.

The game’s representation of animals is best displayed in the idyllic Lon Lon Ranch, a small farm operated by a human father-daughter duo. Entering the location, “Epona’s Song,” a tranquil and nostalgic piece by composer Koji Kondo, plays in the background. The wistful choice in music isn’t surprising, given widespread yearning by industrialized human populations for a recently abandoned, romanticized pastoralism.

From the perspective of domesticated animals, agriculture of the past was a gentler prospect than the modern, factory-farm system. But for non-humans the pre-industrial farm, as symbolized by Lon Lon Ranch, was still a place of exploitation and violence, where their lives, in general, would be significantly shorter and more circumscribed than those of their nearest, wild cousins.

But in the game, domestication is portrayed as a mutually beneficial, voluntary arrangement. The anthropomorphized cows of Hyrule speak to Link, literally saying, “Have some of my refreshing and nutritious milk!” Of course depicting a relationship as anything like symbiotic when one party kills and eats the other, as well as the latter’s children, would be laughable if it weren’t so appalling.

On this 15th anniversary of the game’s release, I encourage readers to dust off their Nintendo 64 and return to Hyrule. Hike up Death Mountain. Swim in Lake Hylia. Explore the Lost Woods. “Ocarina” is a fantastic piece of art we can enjoy while being aware that, like so much other art, it has a lot of problems.


I think the best part is the "class issues" section, but really the whole thing is Poe worthy, I nearly spit a coke on the screen the first time I read it and realized the author was serious.


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Humanaut
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10 Dec 2014, 4:39 am

Quote:
Thomas the Tank Engine had to shut the hell up to save children everywhere

Classism, sexism, anti-environmentalism bordering on racism: any parent who discovered these hidden lessons will be glad the show’s star just quit.



The_Walrus
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10 Dec 2014, 6:15 am

The class bit in that Zelda post is... wow.

I wish more left-leaning people would just attach their brains sometimes. I don't want to derail a potentially excellent thread, but when the points that the likes of AS try to make are imitated by people who don't really understand them, it undermines intelligent analysis that is similarly structured. I am sure people on the right have similar criticisms of, for example, racist anti-immigration campaigners.



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10 Dec 2014, 9:19 am

Landover Baptist Church( http://www.landoverbaptist.org/ ) is routinely mistaken for a real church website rather than a parody of Westboro Baptist Church.


Your example is pretty funny. left-leaning academia-speak can be hard to distinguish from parodies of same.



Dox47
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10 Dec 2014, 10:11 pm

The same author also had this up at Salon, which isn't quite as "good" as the Zelda article, but manages a similar trick of reading way too much into things:

http://www.salon.com/2013/07/20/grand_t ... _liberals/

This one might top him though:

https://storify.com/DrJaneChi/on-1k-vag ... -to-listen

It's a summary of a series of tweets, so I can't really quote it effectively here, but it's a feminist upbraiding other feminists for using the word 'vagina', as it's not inclusive of trans men... I don't think I could make that up.


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11 Dec 2014, 10:41 am

The new forum software screws with links.

I think the GTA thing is here. It's one eyed (GTAV is perhaps the least stealthy stealth-parody of the American right ever), but I'm not tempted to evoke Poe's law. Unfortunately it's the sort of thing stupid people do.

I think the trans-exclusionary thing is here. Tbh apart from the trans man who gives a million responses when one would do, I think that illustrates my point from the last post nicely - it's a perfectly reasonable discussion that looks ridiculous because of association with brainless discussion about trans exclusion by people who are concerned but not critical.



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11 Dec 2014, 11:19 am

I have hard time believing Salon is a serious website, I hope for the sake of the world it is just satire and clickbait for the sake of making money but I suspect its not. They're crazy on the level that Nazis, Bolsheviks, or the Khmer Rouge were. The people that supported that still exist today.



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11 Dec 2014, 7:13 pm

I must admit, I've never read salon because it looks like E-News or just a celeb-fest.


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Dox47
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17 Dec 2014, 2:18 am

Narrator wrote:
I must admit, I've never read salon because it looks like E-News or just a celeb-fest.


I started reading it because Glenn Greenwald used to write for them and I enjoyed his articles, but I later discovered that it's an invaluable resource for when I get a high handed progressive type claiming that the right wing has a monopoly on stupid, most of the articles are ridiculous click-bait, but there are some truly breathtakingly moronic but completely earnest gems lurking there. I do like their sex columnist, she seems relatively sane.


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Dox47
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17 Dec 2014, 2:21 am

http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk ... g-rape-law

I don't know if this is exactly Poe material, but law students refusing to learn certain areas of the law because it might "trigger" them, to the point that they object to the word 'violate', as in "this act violates the law", seems almost like a parody.


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17 Dec 2014, 7:17 am

Dox47 wrote:
http://www.newyorker.com/news/news-desk ... g-rape-law

I don't know if this is exactly Poe material, but law students refusing to learn certain areas of the law because it might "trigger" them, to the point that they object to the word 'violate', as in "this act violates the law", seems almost like a parody.


The concept certainly is even if the article isn't. Luckily the author/ law professor recognizes thne absurdity and danger of such a concept. A Salon author might not. Unluckily, these are tomorrow's lawyers. If the don't grow out of this, they could endanger a future client by avoiding triggering but important information the client has (depending on what type of law they go into). "Imagine a surgeon who can't handle blood" indeed. Law schools should not encourage and enable this.



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17 Dec 2014, 1:50 pm

Are you sure that's not a recycled school paper?

...because it reads like the sort of crap produced when a student is forced to analyze a work using a specific framework, to demonstrate mastery of that frame.

I'd say it's more likely the product of laziness than anything else. But, whatever else it is, it is pretty nutty.


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17 Dec 2014, 6:56 pm

I see them most times I go to CNN.



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17 Dec 2014, 7:26 pm

The discussion of "trigger warnings" nowadays in tandem with Poe's Law could make a lengthy thread unto itself.



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17 Dec 2014, 9:48 pm

Well, an example of me taking somewhat immoral advantage of Poe's Law was, not too long ago, when I entered a thread on the Israel/Palestine discussion and pretended to have all these genocidal sentiments regarding the Palestinians. The person the remarks were targeted at, naturally, took them as a literal expression of my views.

In actual fact, I tend to be sympathetic with the left wing of Israel's Labor Party. I just have a nasty temperament, unto myself. As a matter of logical fact, I regard their policies to be most likely to lead to positive outcomes for the region. I don't have the saccharine, sappy, moralistic mentality of the people affiliated with that party. If anything, I have a cynical, somewhat nasty personality. However, I have a basic comprehension of what kinds of attitudes tend to be most effective at bringing about positive outcomes, even though I tend to be extremely incompetent at exercising them.

However, I had observed someone tilting at windmills, thinking they were giants. Namely, the person in question was arguing with semi-educated dopes and thinking that they were some horrible, evil neo-nazi bad guys or something, and the target of my remarks gave the impression that he or she must have been masturbating to his or her sanctimonious, pious, pseudo-liberal BS. I had seen this pattern one too many times, so I decided to pose, for a while, as an actual giant, so this person could learn to distinguish between a giant and a stinking windmill.

Anyway, I may be risking derailing the topic on that, but that is an example of how you can really use Poe's Law. Usually, people who think they are the "Caped Crusader" will believe whatever story fits into their fantasy dream-world.



Dox47
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18 Dec 2014, 12:41 am

BraveMurderDay wrote:
The discussion of "trigger warnings" nowadays in tandem with Poe's Law could make a lengthy thread unto itself.


Oh god yes, every time I think I've seen the stupidest one ever, one even more moronic pops up and really does cause me to wonder if I'm reading a parody.

Here's a UCSB professor actually attempting to use "triggering" as a legal defense:

http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/volo ... 6788-481-4

Quote:
Here’s the police report (emphases and some paragraph breaks added):

At about 1500 hours, I spoke to Miller-Young by telephone. I recorded my conversation with Miller-Young on my digital voice recorder.

In essence, Miller-Young told me that she felt “triggered” by the images on the posters. Miller-Young stated that she had been walking through the Arbor to get back to South Hall. Miller-Young said she was approached by people who gave her literature about abortion. Miller-Young said that she found this literature and pictures disturbing. Miller-Young said that she found this material offensive because she teaches about women’s “reproductive rights” and is pregnant. She said an argument ensued about the graphic nature of these images.

Miller-Young said that she situation became “passionate” and that other students in the area were “triggered” in a negative way by the imagery. Miller-Young said that she and others began demanding that the images be taken down. Miller-Young said that the demonstrators refused.

At which point, Miller-Young said that she “just grabbed it [the sign] from this girl’s hands.” Asked if there had been a struggle, Miller-Young stated, “I’m stronger so I was able to take the poster.”

Miller-Young said that the poster had been taken back to her office. Once in her office, a “safe space” described by Miller-Young, Miller-Young said that they were still upset by the images on the poster and had destroyed it. Miller-Young said that she was “mainly” responsible for the posters destruction because she was the only one with scissors.

I asked if Miller-Young had carried the poster into her office or if she had students carried it. Miller-Young said that she had carried the poster but that there were students with her. Miller-Young went on to say that because the poster was upsetting to her and other students, she felt that the activists did not have the right to be there.

I asked Miller-Young if she knew the students who had been with her (the students I had seen in the video). Miller-Young said that she was under the impression that I had already spoke to one of the students (Ito). Miller-Young refused to provide me with the unidentified student’s name, stating that she was not comfortable with it. Miller-Young said that she was concerned with protecting her students who she believed were “following” her.

I asked Miller-Young if she felt anything wrong had happened this afternoon. Miller-Young said that she did not know enough about the limits of free speech to answer my question. Miller-Young went on to say that she was not sure what an acceptable and legal response to hate speech would be. Miller-Young said that she was willing to pay for the cost of the sign but would “hate it.”

I explained to Miller-Young that the victims in this case felt that a crime had occurred. I told Miller-Young that I appreciated the fact that she felt traumatized by the imagery but that her response constituted a violation of law. Furthermore, I told Miller-Young that I was worried about the example she had set for her undergraduate students.

Miller-Young said that her students “were wanting her to take” the sign away. Miller-Young argued that she set a good example for her students. Miller-Young likened her behavior to that of a “conscientious objector.” Miller-Young said that she did not feel that what she had done was criminal. However, she acknowledged that the sign did not belong to her.

I asked Miller-Young what crimes she felt the pro-life group had violated. Miller-Young replied that their coming to campus and showing “graphic imagery” was insensitive to the community. I clarified the difference between University policy and law to Miller-Young and asked her again what law had been violated. Miller-Young said that she believed the pro-life group may have violated University policy. Miller-Young said that her actions today were in defense of her students and her own safety.

Miller-Young said that she felt that this issue was not criminal and expressed a desire to find a resolution outside of the legal system. Miller-Young continued and stated that she had the “moral” right to act in the way she did.

I asked Miller-Young if she could have behaved differently in this instance. There was a long pause. “I’ve said that I think I did the right thing. But I acknowledge that I probably should not have taken their poster.” Miller-Young also said that she wished that the anti-abortion group had taken down the images when they demanded them to.

Miller-Young also suggested that the group had violated her rights. I asked Miller-Young what right the group had violated. Miller-Young responded, “My personal right to go to work and not be in harm.”

Miller-Young elaborated that one of the reasons she had felt so alarmed by this imagery is because she is about to have the test for Down Syndrome. Miller-Young said. “I work here, why do they get to intervene in that?”

I explained to Miller-Young that vandalism, battery and robbery had occurred. I also told Miller-Young that individuals involved in this case desired prosecution.

I later booked the torn sign into evidence at UCPD. I also uploaded the audio files of my interviews into digital evidence.

I request that a copy of my report, along with all related supplemental reports, be forwarded to the District Attorney’s Office for review.


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