Page 1 of 1 [ 15 posts ] 

ephestia
Tufted Titmouse
Tufted Titmouse

User avatar

Joined: 15 May 2011
Gender: Male
Posts: 35
Location: Spain

06 Sep 2011, 1:25 pm

They do not dress as 2 000 years ago and their values ​​are not those of 2 000 years ago. They have nothing in common with other communities in East and Africa.

What if an Israeli seen a movie about Spartans and Persians, he is identified with the Persians (where they fought the Jews) or the Spartans?

At what point in its history that people are Romanized?

Can be an explanation that his race disappeared under Hadrian and his culture was copied by the Khazars and Germans?



ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 88
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

06 Sep 2011, 2:06 pm

ephestia wrote:
They do not dress as 2 000 years ago and their values ​​are not those of 2 000 years ago. They have nothing in common with other communities in East and Africa.

What if an Israeli seen a movie about Spartans and Persians, he is identified with the Persians (where they fought the Jews) or the Spartans?



Neither. The closest contact of Israelite culture and Greek culture was with Alexander the Great and his successors, particularly Ptolemy. The Jews and Greeks had a love hate relation with each other. In places outside of Israel, Jews lived in peace with their Greek and Pagan neighbors. There was a flourishing Jewish community in Alexandria under the Ptolemies.

ruveyn



ephestia
Tufted Titmouse
Tufted Titmouse

User avatar

Joined: 15 May 2011
Gender: Male
Posts: 35
Location: Spain

07 Sep 2011, 12:12 pm

ruveyn wrote:
ephestia wrote:
They do not dress as 2 000 years ago and their values ​​are not those of 2 000 years ago. They have nothing in common with other communities in East and Africa.

What if an Israeli seen a movie about Spartans and Persians, he is identified with the Persians (where they fought the Jews) or the Spartans?



Neither. The closest contact of Israelite culture and Greek culture was with Alexander the Great and his successors, particularly Ptolemy. The Jews and Greeks had a love hate relation with each other. In places outside of Israel, Jews lived in peace with their Greek and Pagan neighbors. There was a flourishing Jewish community in Alexandria under the Ptolemies.

ruveyn


Certainly, the Maccabees rejected the influence.

But though these people had to be romanized to become the nation today!! !!

THEY ARE CONSIDERATED AS WEST!



MarketAndChurch
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 3 Apr 2011
Age: 37
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,022
Location: The Peoples Republic Of Portland

07 Sep 2011, 7:35 pm

Israel's recent inception was romantic, fresh off the boats from the concentration camps and into a land that your ancestors have a connection to start a new life. Since then, it's been their neighbors that have been and still are romanticized. Time isn't an issue so much as the chosen lens by which we chose to see people through.


_________________
It is not up to you to finish the task, nor are you free to desist from trying.


ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 88
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

08 Sep 2011, 10:20 am

MarketAndChurch wrote:
Israel's recent inception was romantic, fresh off the boats from the concentration camps and into a land that your ancestors have a connection to start a new life. Since then, it's been their neighbors that have been and still are romanticized. Time isn't an issue so much as the chosen lens by which we chose to see people through.


The OP said -Romanized-.

ruveyn



Kenani
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker

User avatar

Joined: 30 Nov 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 53
Location: California

08 Sep 2011, 7:05 pm

Obviously Israel is Romanized because the Zionist movement was begun by Ashkenazi Jews (from Europe), who also held the most political influence through much of Israel's history. Their ancestors had been living in Europe for so long that they must have picked up the culture, and the founders of Israel also wanted it to be a modern country. Being Western, they considered Western culture to be the standard for modernization, so that's what they pursued. Of course there are many Mizrahi Jews (from the Middle East and North Africa) who brought Eastern culture with them to Israel, and there are definitely many elements of Eastern culture in Israel, but Western culture is what was adopted by the Zionist founders of Israel and all the other Israeli Jews have largely, but not entirely, assimilated.

Quote:
They do not dress as 2 000 years ago and their values ​​are not those of 2 000 years ago. They have nothing in common with other communities in East and Africa.


Most people don't dress the same as or have the same values as their ancestors did 2000 years ago, East or West.

Quote:
Can be an explanation that his race disappeared under Hadrian and his culture was copied by the Khazars and Germans?


No.



Kraichgauer
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 48,467
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.

08 Sep 2011, 11:47 pm

Kenani wrote:
Obviously Israel is Romanized because the Zionist movement was begun by Ashkenazi Jews (from Europe), who also held the most political influence through much of Israel's history. Their ancestors had been living in Europe for so long that they must have picked up the culture, and the founders of Israel also wanted it to be a modern country. Being Western, they considered Western culture to be the standard for modernization, so that's what they pursued. Of course there are many Mizrahi Jews (from the Middle East and North Africa) who brought Eastern culture with them to Israel, and there are definitely many elements of Eastern culture in Israel, but Western culture is what was adopted by the Zionist founders of Israel and all the other Israeli Jews have largely, but not entirely, assimilated.

Quote:
They do not dress as 2 000 years ago and their values ​​are not those of 2 000 years ago. They have nothing in common with other communities in East and Africa.


Most people don't dress the same as or have the same values as their ancestors did 2000 years ago, East or West.

Quote:
Can be an explanation that his race disappeared under Hadrian and his culture was copied by the Khazars and Germans?


No.


Do I understand the question properly? That actual Jews had disappeared, and that modern Jews are actually Germans and Khazars? If so, the answer is no. To be sure though, Jews had intermixed with Germans since the Romans had repopulated part of them on the Rhineland.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



naturalplastic
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 26 Aug 2010
Age: 69
Gender: Male
Posts: 35,189
Location: temperate zone

09 Sep 2011, 7:06 am

The ancient Jews of Judea were ruled by Rome but were not particularly Romanized. Even if they had been Romanized that fact would be irrelevent to your question.

Whether an ancient people became romanized or not has nothing to do with whether thier modern descendants are classed as "westerners" or not. All of North Africa, and most of the Middle East were part of the Roman Empire but those areas are not part of the modern west. And the Greco Roman civilization is extinct and is not even the same thing as the modern west anyway.

The eastern half of the Roman Empire itsself lost its GrecoRoman culture and morphed into the thorougly eastern flavored Byzantine Empire- so the Greeks and Romans couldnt even keep themselve "GrecoRoman" after the fifth centurey AD.

Indeed you could argue that it wasnt rome that assimilated the Jews. It was the other way around. The Romans abandoned their pagan gods to worship the one Jewish God.

The modern state of Israel was populated by both oriental jews from muslim countries who are thoroughly eastern in culture, and by western jews from Europe who culturally western. But the western jews dominate the country and its outlook. So you are correct in classifying modern Israel as a "western" country, but I dont know what that has to do with ancient Rome- the Jews from europe have a european outlook becasuse they have lived in europe for 2000 years.



ephestia
Tufted Titmouse
Tufted Titmouse

User avatar

Joined: 15 May 2011
Gender: Male
Posts: 35
Location: Spain

10 Sep 2011, 11:32 am

Kenani wrote:
Quote:
They do not dress as 2 000 years ago and their values ​​are not those of 2 000 years ago. They have nothing in common with other communities in East and Africa.


Most people don't dress the same as or have the same values as their ancestors did 2000 years ago, East or West.[quote]

soldiers from israel, you can see that they are Nordic-looking women

Image


Image

Image


VS

Jews fron Aetiopia
Image

Biblic Jew

Image



Last edited by ephestia on 10 Sep 2011, 11:44 am, edited 1 time in total.

ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 88
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

10 Sep 2011, 11:34 am

ephestia wrote:

Jews fron Aetiopia
Image

Biblic Jew

Image


Half the people in my synagogue look like this.

ruveyn



ephestia
Tufted Titmouse
Tufted Titmouse

User avatar

Joined: 15 May 2011
Gender: Male
Posts: 35
Location: Spain

10 Sep 2011, 11:57 am

Kenani wrote:
Being Western, they considered Western culture to be the standard for modernization, so that's what they pursued.


China is being "Romanized". :bounce:

Westerners consider themselves "descendants" of the Romans, or would like to be, I'm not saying that this idea is really true, but this idea is an idea that prevails, and perhaps for this circunatancia not talked about much of the Byzantine Empire because it is a uncomfortable because the Byzantine Empire is the sole heir of Rome

naturalplastic wrote:
Indeed you could argue that it wasnt rome that assimilated the Jews. It was the other way around. The Romans abandoned their pagan gods to worship the one Jewish God.


yes, Romans romaniced the cult.

beardless jesus

Image

Egyptian influences

Image

to

Image



ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 88
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

10 Sep 2011, 12:30 pm

ephestia wrote:

Image


This is probably what Jesus looked like.

ruveyn



Kraichgauer
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 48,467
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.

10 Sep 2011, 2:01 pm

To be exact, the roots of modern western culture are Graeco-Roman, Christian, and Germanic.
That is, the Greeks provided the high culture that the Romans adopted - then the Romans adopted the Christian religion, which had originated of course in Judea, changing their moral outlook - and finally, the Romans were overcome by Germanic barbarians, who appreciating the Roman culture, accepted it along with Christianity, but essentially remaining northern in their everyday lives.
Sorry for the much too long sentence.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 88
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

10 Sep 2011, 3:37 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
To be exact, the roots of modern western culture are Graeco-Roman, Christian, and Germanic.
That is, the Greeks provided the high culture that the Romans adopted - then the Romans adopted the Christian religion, which had originated of course in Judea, changing their moral outlook - and finally, the Romans were overcome by Germanic barbarians, who appreciating the Roman culture, accepted it along with Christianity, but essentially remaining northern in their everyday lives.
Sorry for the much too long sentence.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


The underlying ethics of Christianity originate with the Jewish religion.

Joshua, late of Bethlehem, head guru of the Christian sect was Jewish.

ruveyn



Kraichgauer
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 12 Apr 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 48,467
Location: Spokane area, Washington state.

10 Sep 2011, 3:45 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
To be exact, the roots of modern western culture are Graeco-Roman, Christian, and Germanic.
That is, the Greeks provided the high culture that the Romans adopted - then the Romans adopted the Christian religion, which had originated of course in Judea, changing their moral outlook - and finally, the Romans were overcome by Germanic barbarians, who appreciating the Roman culture, accepted it along with Christianity, but essentially remaining northern in their everyday lives.
Sorry for the much too long sentence.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


The underlying ethics of Christianity originate with the Jewish religion.

Joshua, late of Bethlehem, head guru of the Christian sect was Jewish.

ruveyn


Absolutely. Overlooking Judaism wasn't intentional on my part; my sentence was just too long to include everything. And trust me, I could have written MUCH MORE!

-Bill otherwise known as Kraichgauer