Two Jehovah's Witnesses came to my door...

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Two Jehovah's Witnesses came to my door yesterday morning. I brought up the topic of evolution. The lead JW tried to tell me about hypothesis, theory, and laws of science. He tried to say that theories become laws when they are proven facts. I corrected him and explained that laws of science are not laws in the ordinary sense but are simply observed regularities of nature, and that in some ways theories are stronger than isolated facts because they must account for all the observed evidence and be falsified by none. Theories do not become laws, and laws are not "better" than theories.

That flustered him a bit, but then he tried to tell me that science had proven all humans are descendants from a single pair of humans. This is another common misunderstanding of some genetic studies of the past couple decades. Again I corrected him and told him that individuals don't evolve, breeding populations do. This flustered him even more. He said, "You're a confirmed evolutionist!" I replied, "No, I just accept reality. I can't deny the evidence I've seen from studying this subject forty years."

He said he got a degree in science forty years ago. I said that based on his misunderstanding of the meanings of theory and law in science he apparently didn't have a good education in that subject. Then the younger JW spoke up and asked me whether any fossils had been found that clearly showed a transition between apes and humans. I unequivocally told him yes. He looked shocked and said that wasn't what he had been told. The leader was visibly nervous now and they made to leave. I thanked them for their visit and for their motivation, but said I couldn't subscribe to their denomination because it was a denial of my reality.

If they had stayed longer I could have explained about the genetic evidence for evolution such as human chromosome 2, endogenous retroviruses, and pseudogenes that show the degree of relationship between different species. I could have talked about the nested hierarchies of many different types of data that all produce the same tree of life when mapped, and that the fact these different nested hierarchies match is yet more evidence evolution happens. I could have discussed Tiktaalik (the "fishapod" fish with legs), or whale evolution (whale fossils with legs), or hominid fossils such as Australopithecus afarensis who while perhaps not a direct ancestor are most certainly at the very least uncles or aunts on the human family tree.

What I didn't get a chance to say (but dearly wanted to) was to ask them to put themselves in my place. Imagine someone coming to your door claiming to have great spiritual insight, but then you find out that person insists the earth is flat. Would you seriously trust that person's opinion on spiritual matters (or any subject for that matter) when they are so obviously wrong about something that has so much evidence that can be checked by anyone who has an interest in the subject? To deny that the evidence for evolution exists is just as crazy and just as wrong as to insist the earth is flat in spite of all evidence to the contrary. I also could have discussed the sources creationists use to support their arguments, which usually consist of distortions, misquotations, and fabrications. Ah well, maybe next time.

Good for you man, way to tell them what's up.

I think I'm going to prepare a PowerPoint presentation detailing the subjects you mentioned, just in case any JW's show up at my door.

I knew someday kxmode would start tracking all of us down

Are JW's required not to believe in Evolution? or is it just as religious folks they tend not to?

I think they tend to be grossly misinformed.

I seem to recall that after some JWs left "The Watchtower" here I was bored and browsed through it and it said something along those lines. "Lack of transitional fossils" "etc"

That is too bad Catholics, Mainline Xians, Jews and Mormons are allowed freedom on that topic.

I could be wrong, I'm hoping kxmode can answer that question if he notices the thread.

He is prolly avoiding it as not to be sucked into a flame war.
here is an article from the watchtower.
http://www.watchtower.org/e/200609/article_03.htm
looks like they can't

THAT is the problem: garbage in, garbage out. I have found that most people who argue against the fact of evolution are grossly misinformed about this subject. I would hope that IF they could be shown the evidence and have it explained to them, then perhaps they might be more receptive to the idea. Many though have their minds closed, convinced if they accept evolution that means they are rejecting God. The faith of some people seems like a house built of playing cards, where if one is displaced the whole house comes tumbling down. How sad.

If evolution didn't happen, and if the God of the Bible is our Creator, then why oh why did He plant so much evidence of so many different types that all clearly show it does happen? That is another of my favorite questions to ask creationists (along with "would you trust spiritual guidance from someone who insisted the earth is flat?"). The way I see it, if evolution didn't happen, that would make God a malicious prankster trying to deceive us, and if the eternal damnation of our souls is at stake that really isn't a very nice God at all.

Why would God say one thing in His creation (the physical evidence for evolution) and another in His book that contradicts it (a literal reading of Genesis)? Most Christian denominations have gone past this by saying whether or not evolution happens is not relevant to the core message of their faith, but of course the fundies insist that if Genesis isn't literally true there was no Adam, no Fall, and no need for Salvation, which would put Jesus out of a job. Another possibility though is to consider that Genesis is not meant to be taken literally, any more than the many passages in the Bible that, if taken literally, imply the earth is flat.

Last edited by TheBicyclingGuitarist on 27 Oct 2011, 2:04 am, edited 2 times in total.

TheBicyclingGuitarist, I think you are cruel - entering into a battle of wits against unarmed opponents.

I did enjoy pointing out their errors. It was amusing to see how flustered the elder JW got when I pulled the rug out from underneath his carefully scripted arguments. My enjoying that really isn't something I am proud of. However, some of what I did was motivated by compassion. I felt sorry for their making some decisions based on faulty information and tried to assist them, although it seems all I did was confuse and upset them. Still, perhaps seeds were planted. Maybe at least the younger JW will do a bit of research on Google and find out he has been lied to about this subject. It is my opinion that those denominations that continue to deny the fact of evolution will either have to eventually admit they were wrong about this matter or else they will fade into obscurity as another failed crackpot cult. Of course, I could be wrong! We could go back into a scientifically illiterate dark ages too.

Even though BG and I might not understand/know/view all the same things in all the same ways, I do not believe he was meaning to do battle there. Rather, and just as I have done with various missionaries at the door, he was just trying to give them a little more information to consider. In one case a few years ago, the elder of the two men at my own door became nervous when the younger trainee began showing interest in some things I was saying ... and I did my very best to be sure he had heard as much as possible before the two finally got away!

Put yourself in their shoes. To them they were just trying to save your soul. If you know all those things then a nice " I can't talk now" would have been better than being a dick and talking down to them like that. I

I'm no expert but isn't The theory of evolution still just a theory? You make it seem like your theory is better than their theory? I just see some isolated facts.

I'm sure you will correct me if I am wrong though.

... a lie ...


BG does not sound to me like he was doing that.