Does Bin Laden's logic make sense ?

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Does Bin Laden's logic make sense ? Bin Laden said that American Citizens pay taxes and vote for our government therefor we are just as guilty for the crimes and for what are Government does does this logic make sense ?Our American Constitution says we the people to form a more perfect union therefor we the people are the government ? Or is our Government by Corporations and for Corporations since we have Lobbyists and Americans are forced to pay taxes ?

Full text: bin Laden's 'letter to America'

(a) This argument contradicts your continuous repetition that America is the land of freedom, and its leaders in this world. Therefore, the American people are the ones who choose their government by way of their own free will; a choice which stems from their agreement to its policies. Thus the American people have chosen, consented to, and affirmed their support for the Israeli oppression of the Palestinians, the occupation and usurpation of their land, and its continuous killing, torture, punishment and expulsion of the Palestinians. The American people have the ability and choice to refuse the policies of their Government and even to change it if they want.

(b) The American people are the ones who pay the taxes which fund the planes that bomb us in Afghanistan, the tanks that strike and destroy our homes in Palestine, the armies which occupy our lands in the Arabian Gulf, and the fleets which ensure the blockade of Iraq. These tax dollars are given to Israel for it to continue to attack us and penetrate our lands. So the American people are the ones who fund the attacks against us, and they are the ones who oversee the expenditure of these monies in the way they wish, through their elected candidates.

(c) Also the American army is part of the American people. It is this very same people who are shamelessly helping the Jews fight against us.

(d) The American people are the ones who employ both their men and their women in the American Forces which attack us.

(e) This is why the American people cannot be not innocent of all the crimes committed by the Americans and Jews against us.

(x) Your law is the law of the rich and wealthy people, who hold sway in their political parties, and fund their election campaigns with their gifts. Behind them stand the Jews, who control your policies, media and economy.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2002/nov/24/theobserver

I had a Muslim friend tell me that he dreamed that it was better to land on top of the World Trade Center than to crash inside of it.

Bin Laden's trash is the usual warmed over argument for collective guilt. It cuts both ways. The people who are devout in the Q'ran partake of the evil and bin Laden perpetrated on the U.S. so they are not innocent either. If Americans are fair targets, so then Muslims are fair targets.

ruveyn

I don't like it, but if you're going to war with somebody, as Osama I guess was, then yes, it does make sense. It's the exact same logic as our firebombings of Japan, and the bombing of Dresden by the Allies in WWII.

I reject his rationale for condemning the united states, at least to the level that he did, but as members of a nation born from one of the bloodiest revolutions the world had ever seen at the time it happened, it is incumbent on us as citizens to make our government what it ought to be, and we are to blame for failing.

That is still no justification for plain old murder. War is one thing, murder is another. In a war one goes after enemy forces and enemy assets. Collateral damage will occur but that is not the intent.

If we take bin Laden at his foul mouth word, his people attacked the United States because the government of the U.S. supports Israel. Plain and simple.

ruveyn

I didn't say he was right to kill people.

I said he's right with regard to the fact that our government is largely our own fault. We can blame our parents too, i guess.

I don't vote or pay taxes. I guess by his logic I'm innocent then.

Why is it wrong for a democratic republic (the U.S.) to support the only working democracy in the middle east? And please, no nonsense about how those pesky Jews stole the land from the Palestinians. Please recall that the United States is stolen land, every last acre.

ruveyn

Because they are violent sh!t disturbers?

This obviously isnt the complete text because its starts with bin laden in mid-thought replying to someone else's arguement which isnt shown.

Apparently hes replying to an american boasting about American democracy by saying that if a america really were a democracy that would only make its people even more culpable for their governments crimes than otherwise. Which atleast superficially does seem to have a certain logic.

But then he goes on to say that america isnt really a democracy because its run by corporations. BUT.. the American people give their sons, daughters, and taxes, to that government so the american people are still culpable for what thier governmen does.

But when he finnally states what the crime is that we are culpable of: it turns out to be supporting Israel ( and Israel beats up on the Palestinians).

So if A supports B, and B supports C, and C gives D a bloody nose: then its the duty of E to avenge D by toasting A to death with a flamethrower. Thats what I see as the ghist of his argument.

We support our government, our government supports Israel's government, and Israel does such and such to the Palestinians.

So that justifies him doing even worse crimes than Israel did to the Palestinians to: not Israel, not to US military targets, but to the civilian American people in the USA itsself.

Doesnt make any sense to me.

Maybe it does to you.

I would expect that comment about Jews from a Gentile

Some Gentiles, not all.

ruveyn

Sure, play the race card.

I have no problem with jews. I support the right of the house of Abraham to have a sovereign homeland. I won't even argue that maybe it should be the upper west side of new york city.

I think zionism is a legitimate cause. I am in fact descended from an early mormon family that fled Nauvoo after the murder of Joseph Smith. While i don't pretend to compare the plight of early mormons with the plight of jews, knowing that my ancestors were persecuted for their beliefs - some of them imprisoned on suspicion of having more than one wife, some fleeing lynch mobs - helps me understand. My ancestors got the f*ck out of the midwest and kept going until they figured they'd gone far enough that nobody would come after them.

I am unsure if i am directly descended from any of the mormons who got the hell out of upstate new york to settle in a swamp on the banks of the mississippi. I just know they were in nauvoo when that all got ugly, and high-tailed it out of there with one of the first few wagon trains.

And frankly, Deseret (what you call Utah - from the Ute indian word meaning "the place where we live") is just a temporary staging area. The real mormon homeland is in Missouri. But mormons are biding their time.

I cannot, however, offer my support to any group of people who pursue an agenda where they continually find justification and rationalization to antagonize another group of people.

That goes for as*hole palestinians too, but the israelis kill 5 palestinians for every israeli casualty, so the math for me is simple when deciding who is the bigger as*hole.

It is possible to be both a victim and an as*hole. The israeli factions that continue to build on disputed territories are as*holes. The israeli factions that shout down any attempt to seek a lasting peace with the palestinians are as*holes. SOME - not all - israelis are as*holes, and i will have no truck with them.

So in short, as*hole israelis are a subset of israelis, israeli jews are a subset of jews. I have a beef with only the first subset.

I'm not going wade into the whole Israeli thing

I was watching some old Ron Paul videos tho and found particularly poignant to this topic

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wZtPzOukjZA[/youtube]

I'd have to say Osama's logic makes perfect sense. I disagree with it obviously but I understand it. The fact of the matter is we(meaning the government of the United States and our allies) have murdered more innocent people than Al Qaeda ever did but that's acceptable collateral damage to further our goals whatever they may be and we say that openly. All Osama did was turn our logic back onto ourselves. We made that bed and now we have to lay in it.

Most people in Afghanistan have never even heard of the attacks on 9/11 so what do they think when drop bombs and raze entire villages? 'And People wonder why a lot of Afghans/Pakistanis/Iraqis side with Al Qaeda and the Taliban instead of the self-proclaim defender freedom and democracy? I saw a show where a soldier told group Afghans about 9/11 and their response was "so they knock 2 buildings and you guys destroy our whole country?" Osama Bin Laden was a hero to the Afghan people. He along with the Mujaheddin drove out the Russians and he built roads, schools, and hospitals. From their viewpoint we just came and reign down death from the sky with completely impunity just like the Russians.

not all but gentiles but the majority of the Muslims in the world they do make comments like that all the time.