Burden of proof for god's existence in a legal setting?

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cw10
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23 Nov 2011, 7:17 am

On one side you have the theists, the other you have the atheists.

Theism claims god exists, atheists claim god doesn't exist.

In a court of law for example one does not require proof by clear and convincing evidence in a civil debate, and I would assume this would be a civil debate. One side only needs to produce a higher preponderance of the evidence than the other.

The text in bold is really the crux of my question, were I to assume I was on the right track?

Give me your thoughts.

*edit for typo.



MMonjeJr
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23 Nov 2011, 8:48 am

You're already mis-stating the issue. It should be:

Theists claim god exists, atheists claim there is no evidence that god exists.

Atheists do not affirm the statement "I believe there is no God" (some do, but as a group they don't), they affirm the statement "I do not believe there is a God". These two statements are logically different.

In the first statement, the belief is a positive action--an action of agency. The atheist has weighed all evidence and drawn a deductive conclusion. In that case, they would need to provide evidence to prove their claim.

In the second statement, they are not stating a belief--that is, they are not committing an action of agency. Rather, they are refusing to affirm a belief because they have judged it lacking.

While some atheists are anti-theists (they will affirm the first statement), most of them will only affirm the second statement, and all of them will admit that the proposition is an unfalsifiable, which means that whether they admit it or not, affirming the first statement requires making a leap of faith, since there will never be concrete evidence.

Also, it's impossible to prove a negative. You can't prove something does not exist, you can only test the hypothesis that it does. If the hypothesis is falsified, then it is wrong. Proving the absence of something under all circumstances is literally impossible for any human to do, outside of proving it a mathematical impossibility (which is still falsifying the single hypothesis of the mathematical conjecture).

tl;dr - It's logically impossible to prove that there is no god, all you can do is prove that the places (real or spiritual) religious people claim he occupies do not contain him.



Sunshine7
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23 Nov 2011, 10:17 am

I'm religious, but I feel a need to put in a word for anti-theists here:

Quote:
Many orthodox people speak as though it were the business of sceptics to disprove received dogmas rather than of dogmatists to prove them...If I were to suggest that between the Earth and Mars there is a china teapot revolving about the sun in an elliptical orbit, nobody would be able to disprove my assertion provided I were careful to add that the teapot is too small to be revealed even by our most powerful telescopes. But if I were to go on to say that, since my assertion cannot be disproved, it is intolerable presumption on the part of human reason to doubt it, I should rightly be thought to be talking nonsense.

Bertrand Russell.
Full article here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Russel%27s_teapot

Personally, I believe in spite of religion's flagrant defiance of logic; logic is hardly the only method of discourse the human mind has at its disposal. Love does not occur logically, nor common sense, nor desire, nor homosexuality, yet all these things we know to be true and present in every human being (10% of human beings for the latter most case), whether or not they know about Boolean algebra or propositional logic.

Also, pascal's wager.



Fnord
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23 Nov 2011, 10:47 am

I'd like to meet the judge who has the chutzpah to issue a Writ of Habeus Corpus to the leaders of a church to "produce the body" of God...

Quote:
United States of America, (number) Judicial Circuit, (district), ss.: We command you that the body of God, in your custody detained, as it is said, together with the day and cause of his caption and detention, you safely have before Honorable Martin T. Manton, United States Circuit Judge for the Second Judicial Circuit, within the circuit and district aforesaid, to do and receive all and singular those things which the said judge shall then and there consider of him in this behalf; and have you then and there this writ.


... or maybe a simple subpoena will do ...

Quote:
YOU ARE COMMANDED to produce at the offices of (Name), (Address), on or before (Date), a complete record of your identity, including proofs of citizenship, licenses, et al., pertaining to the above-referenced individual who has requested that proof of your existence and identity be established.


(A subpoena is a writ by a government agency, most often a court, that has authority to compel testimony by a witness or production of evidence under a penalty for failure.)


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01001011
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23 Nov 2011, 11:22 am

The OP already assumes 'god' is a well defined concept, which is not the case. Therefore no debate is even possible.



ruveyn
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23 Nov 2011, 2:10 pm

cw10 wrote:
On one side you have the theists, the other you have the atheists.

Theism claims god exists, atheists claim god doesn't exist.

.


Only a subset of the atheists so believe. Most atheists hold that there is insufficient evidence to believe in god. There position pertains to a belief, not the existence or non-existence of god.

An atheist (for the most part) is one who -does not believe- in the god of your choice.

ruveyn



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23 Nov 2011, 4:11 pm

all relgiious people are atheists, to a point :lol:


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mar00
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23 Nov 2011, 4:18 pm

Sunshine7 wrote:
Love does not occur logically, nor common sense, nor desire, nor homosexuality, yet all these things we know to be true and present in every human being (10% of human beings for the latter most case)

Evolution, Biochemistry, Psychology? Doesn't it make more sense to believe that they can be logically explained?



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23 Nov 2011, 4:33 pm

cw10 wrote:
On one side you have the theists, the other you have the atheists.

Theism claims god exists, atheists claim god doesn't exist.

In a court of law for example one does not require proof by clear and convincing evidence in a civil debate, and I would assume this would be a civil debate. One side only needs to produce a higher preponderance of the evidence than the other.

The text in bold is really the crux of my question, were I to assume I was on the right track?

Give me your thoughts.

*edit for typo.


In Britain your case would not make it to court because you have no evidence to present.

It would appear the same more or less applies to the USA, see here:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Frivolous_litigation



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23 Nov 2011, 5:01 pm

Ah.

In this case, the writing of the official Roman government scribes that followed Jesus, writing down what they saw is applicable. They recorded what they saw under pain of death for falsehood or obvious omission. Multiple scribes were employed to follow Jesus. So, therefore, the official records of a legal recognized government confirms those events happened.

The Jewish scribes recorded the same events, and they also employed multiple scribes to follow Jesus. Since they were an officially recognized government as well, that would be two sets of official records of a legal recognized governments that confirms those events happened.

I doubt the Jewish scribes were under the same pain of death, yet their writings correlate with the Roman scribes.

In a court of law, this is called a "slam dunk"...(sorry about gloating, but we Quakers so rarely get the opportunity...)



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23 Nov 2011, 5:08 pm

shrox wrote:
Ah.

In this case, the writing of the official Roman government scribes that followed Jesus, writing down what they saw is applicable. They recorded what they saw under pain of death for falsehood or obvious omission. Multiple scribes were employed to follow Jesus. So, therefore, the official records of a legal recognized government confirms those events happened.

The Jewish scribes recorded the same events, and they also employed multiple scribes to follow Jesus. Since they were an officially recognized government as well, that would be two sets of official records of a legal recognized governments that confirms those events happened.

I doubt the Jewish scribes were under the same pain of death, yet their writings correlate with the Roman scribes.

In a court of law, this is called a "slam dunk"...(sorry about gloating, but we Quakers so rarely get the opportunity...)

Their authenticity would first have to be verrified and even if they were it would only support the claim that someone named Jesus was out and about around that time doing preachy things and causing a ruckus.

It would have no bearing on the case for God's existence.


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shrox
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23 Nov 2011, 5:16 pm

Lecks wrote:
shrox wrote:
Ah.

In this case, the writing of the official Roman government scribes that followed Jesus, writing down what they saw is applicable. They recorded what they saw under pain of death for falsehood or obvious omission. Multiple scribes were employed to follow Jesus. So, therefore, the official records of a legal recognized government confirms those events happened.

The Jewish scribes recorded the same events, and they also employed multiple scribes to follow Jesus. Since they were an officially recognized government as well, that would be two sets of official records of a legal recognized governments that confirms those events happened.

I doubt the Jewish scribes were under the same pain of death, yet their writings correlate with the Roman scribes.

In a court of law, this is called a "slam dunk"...(sorry about gloating, but we Quakers so rarely get the opportunity...)

Their authenticity would first have to be verrified and even if they were it would only support the claim that someone named Jesus was out and about around that time doing preachy things and causing a ruckus.

It would have no bearing on the case for God's existence.


If Jesus is God, and/or God's Son, and the events and actions of Jesus were recorded by mandated officials, (miracles, withered arm healed, thousands fed, emerging from the tomb, ascending before thousands, etc.), I would darn well say that is proof of God in current legal terms. Authentication of the documents is a given in this hypothetical construct.

In modern day, written testimony by mandated officials is as good as video camera evidence, it is only when the two conflict that doubt is cast, There is no conflicting evidence available to the official records I have cited, that I know of. Maybe some graffitti..."Where wovld Jesvs be?"...



DC
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23 Nov 2011, 5:21 pm

shrox wrote:

In modern day, written testimony by mandated officials is as good as video camera evidence, it is only when the two conflict that doubt is cast, There is no conflicting evidence available to the official records I have cited, that I know of. Maybe some graffitti..."Where wovld Jesvs be?"...



I'm afraid when you 'cite' a document, you have to actually 'cite' it not just claim it exists.

Your honour I cite the legal contract where Bill Gates donates all his wealth to me. It is reasonable for the judge at this point to expect you to produce the document in question.



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23 Nov 2011, 5:22 pm

shrox wrote:
If Jesus is God, and/or God's Son, and the events and actions of Jesus were recorded by mandated officials, (miracles, withered arm healed, thousands fed, emerging from the tomb, ascending before thousands, etc.), I would darn well say that is proof of God in current legal terms. Authentication of the documents is a given in this hypothetical construct.

In modern day, written testimony by mandated officials is as good as video camera evidence, it is only when the two conflict that doubt is cast, There is no conflicting evidence available to the official records I have cited, that I know of. Maybe some graffitti..."Where wovld Jesvs be?"...

The bolded would first need to be proven for the italicized to be relevant in the case for God's existence.


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shrox
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23 Nov 2011, 5:36 pm

Lecks wrote:
shrox wrote:
If Jesus is God, and/or God's Son, and the events and actions of Jesus were recorded by mandated officials, (miracles, withered arm healed, thousands fed, emerging from the tomb, ascending before thousands, etc.), I would darn well say that is proof of God in current legal terms. Authentication of the documents is a given in this hypothetical construct.

In modern day, written testimony by mandated officials is as good as video camera evidence, it is only when the two conflict that doubt is cast, There is no conflicting evidence available to the official records I have cited, that I know of. Maybe some graffitti..."Where wovld Jesvs be?"...

The bolded would first need to be proven for the italicized to be relevant in the case for God's existence.


Well, for plenty of judges and juries, it would be proof of God's existence. That would not really be the proof you would need to see of course, so ultimately, the question simply could not be resolved to the atheist's satisfaction.



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23 Nov 2011, 5:43 pm

shrox wrote:
Lecks wrote:
shrox wrote:
If Jesus is God, and/or God's Son, and the events and actions of Jesus were recorded by mandated officials, (miracles, withered arm healed, thousands fed, emerging from the tomb, ascending before thousands, etc.), I would darn well say that is proof of God in current legal terms. Authentication of the documents is a given in this hypothetical construct.

In modern day, written testimony by mandated officials is as good as video camera evidence, it is only when the two conflict that doubt is cast, There is no conflicting evidence available to the official records I have cited, that I know of. Maybe some graffitti..."Where wovld Jesvs be?"...

The bolded would first need to be proven for the italicized to be relevant in the case for God's existence.


Well, for plenty of judges and juries, it would be proof of God's existence. That would not really be the proof you would need to see of course, so ultimately, the question simply could not be resolved to the atheist's satisfaction.

If it can all be proven, then yes it would naturally be enough to sway a judge and jury but the italicized holds no importance for an impartial judge unless the bolded can also be proven.


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