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Dox47
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13 Jan 2012, 4:09 am

Interesting take from the New York TImes:

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I’m looking for reader input on whether and when New York Times news reporters should challenge “facts” that are asserted by newsmakers they write about.

One example mentioned recently by a reader: As cited in an Adam Liptak article on the Supreme Court, a court spokeswoman said Clarence Thomas had “misunderstood” a financial disclosure form when he failed to report his wife’s earnings from the Heritage Foundation. The reader thought it not likely that Mr. Thomas “misunderstood,” and instead that he simply chose not to report the information.

Another example: on the campaign trail, Mitt Romney often says President Obama has made speeches “apologizing for America,” a phrase to which Paul Krugman objected in a December 23 column arguing that politics has advanced to the “post-truth” stage.

As an Op-Ed columnist, Mr. Krugman clearly has the freedom to call out what he thinks is a lie. My question for readers is: should news reporters do the same?

If so, then perhaps the next time Mr. Romney says the president has a habit of apologizing for his country, the reporter should insert a paragraph saying, more or less:

“The president has never used the word ‘apologize’ in a speech about U.S. policy or history. Any assertion that he has apologized for U.S. actions rests on a misleading interpretation of the president’s words.”

That approach is what one reader was getting at in a recent message to the public editor. He wrote:

“My question is what role the paper’s hard-news coverage should play with regard to false statements – by candidates or by others. In general, the Times sets its documentation of falsehoods in articles apart from its primary coverage. If the newspaper’s overarching goal is truth, oughtn’t the truth be embedded in its principal stories? In other words, if a candidate repeatedly utters an outright falsehood (I leave aside ambiguous implications), shouldn’t the Times’s coverage nail it right at the point where the article quotes it?”

This message was typical of mail from some readers who, fed up with the distortions and evasions that are common in public life, look to The Times to set the record straight. They worry less about reporters imposing their judgment on what is false and what is true.

Is that the prevailing view? And if so, how can The Times do this in a way that is objective and fair? Is it possible to be objective and fair when the reporter is choosing to correct one fact over another? Are there other problems that The Times would face that I haven’t mentioned here?

Throughout the 2012 presidential campaign debates, The Times has employed a separate fact-check sidebar to assess the validity of the candidates’ statements. Do you like this feature, or would you rather it be incorporated into regular reporting? How should The Times continue a function like this when we move to the general campaign and there’s less time spent in debates and more time on the road?

http://publiceditor.blogs.nytimes.com/2 ... wanted=all

Seems like an obvious answer, right? I think he actually has a few interesting questions in there about who gets factchecked and how hard, though obviously I think most people would answer "everyone, and very hard". That could make a paper downright unreadable if they inserted corrections for all the lies and distortions, though I think it would be pretty interesting as a behavioral experiment on the politicians. It does feel like lying is just accepted as part of politics these days, and become progressively more blatant and uncommented upon. I would love to see if this trend changed if a mainstream outlet like the Times started getting really nitpicky about lies, but it would have to be really even-handed or it would just get spun as media bias.


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fraac
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13 Jan 2012, 4:15 am

I saw this and it stunned me. Those aren't facts, they're opinions. NYT needs to grow up.



snapcap
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13 Jan 2012, 4:26 am

Al Jazeeza and Russia Today are becoming the best sources of news.


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NarcissusSavage
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13 Jan 2012, 4:39 am

Truth is subjective. More lies are told than could ever be followed up on and fact checked. Deceit is in our very nature, try to abolish it, restrict it, or quell its uprising and you will only be laughed at. Our species sucks.



That is all my own opinion.


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fraac
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13 Jan 2012, 4:46 am

It's just really inelegant. Any journalist can work their inevitable bias into an article just by writing it carefully. Saying they're tempted to disagree with statements from POLITICIANS, people whose job is to spin, is just a horribly clumsy way of pushing their own agenda. I'm not familiar with American newspapers but in Britain it's accepted that all politicians and journalists have an angle and you choose your news aware of that.



spongy
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13 Jan 2012, 5:04 am

Newspapers try to tell the truth.
That being said there are several sides to each story and in order to achieve a accurate representation of what happened you usually need to do research on several different newspapers that can provide opposite points of view since each of the newspapers try to make its side look like the right one and in order to do so they usually omit some of the facts that make their side look badly.


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ruveyn
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13 Jan 2012, 5:06 am

NarcissusSavage wrote:
Truth is subjective. More lies are told than could ever be followed up on and fact checked. Deceit is in our very nature, try to abolish it, restrict it, or quell its uprising and you will only be laughed at. Our species sucks.



That is all my own opinion.


Truth is objective. But sometimes it is incomplete.

You know the litany: The true, the whole true and nothing but the true. Sometimes the whole truth is not told.

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Orwell
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13 Jan 2012, 5:07 am

NYT doing routine fact-checking (and the subsequent corrections that would overwhelm any coverage of anything a GOP politician ever said) would just get them disregarded among the true believer circles as a paragon of "liberal bias."


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NarcissusSavage
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13 Jan 2012, 6:18 am

ruveyn wrote:
NarcissusSavage wrote:
Truth is subjective. More lies are told than could ever be followed up on and fact checked. Deceit is in our very nature, try to abolish it, restrict it, or quell its uprising and you will only be laughed at. Our species sucks.



That is all my own opinion.


Truth is objective. But sometimes it is incomplete.

You know the litany: The true, the whole true and nothing but the true. Sometimes the whole truth is not told.

ruveyn


The whole truth is impossible to tell. There is simply no media capable of processing and storing that much data, nor a way for a person to retrieve it in a format that is comprehensible.


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Sweetleaf
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13 Jan 2012, 6:27 am

what news papers are biased?


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13 Jan 2012, 9:16 am

everything any human ever utters is biased, no matter format.


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naturalplastic
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13 Jan 2012, 11:08 am

Something like the Mitt Romney's comment about Obama supposidly "apologizing fo americar " cant be treated that way in a news story. Its for the op ed page.


Its like every time a candidate says "america's the greatest land" - having the news outlet go into an exhaustive statistical anylisis comparing the US quality of life to every other country. It would render every news story unreadable.

When Michele Bachman rightly became a laughingstock for asserting that "the founding fathers worked day and night for eighty years to end slavery" it was left to the op ed page and to the pundits and comics (like jon stewert) to point out the absuridity of the statement, not to the front page reporters who would just quote it.

If Obama were to say that "When Mitt Romeney was young he was a member of the Hells Angels and trafficed in crystal meth" then that would be a specific fact that could be quickly checked. And then-yes- you could insert a statment on the front page right after the presidents statement that "mitt romney has no police record and there is no evidence for him ever being a Hell's Angel etc".

And you cant convict of Clarence Thomas of Perjery in a newstory.

If you're arrested for beating your neighbor to death and the best thing you have to say for yourself is "he repeatidly hit me in my knuckles with his face" then thats what the papers print without judgement.

You cant just say "its hard to believe that Clarence Thomas would not understand his wife's financial statement..." even if it is hard to believe.

Papers print the lame protests of the accused without judgement all of the time. So why single out Clarence Thomas for judgement?



visagrunt
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13 Jan 2012, 12:02 pm

fraac wrote:
I saw this and it stunned me. Those aren't facts, they're opinions. NYT needs to grow up.


Step back a minute. When a journalist writes, "Mitt Romney said, 'Obama has made speeches apologizing for America.'," that is a statement of fact. Did Romney say it, or didn't he is a question that is subject to objective proof.

The question for the Times--and it's a good one--is, "can the statement stand for itself?" By saying that, "Romney said X," or, "Obama said Y," is the journalist making an implicit attestation to the validity of X or of Y?

It's a frequent complaint that, "repeating a lie doesn't make it true." So if Romney is (ahem) being economical with the truth, what is the obligation of the journalist to lead the reader to that possibility?


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13 Jan 2012, 1:44 pm

When a reporter reports what a politician (or anybody) says, they are telling the truth as long as they don't misquote the person. They have reported not on the veracity of the statement, but on the fact that the person said it. The proper place for questioning the veracity of what someone says is in an opinion piece, not a news story. A news story should report merely the fact that they said it.



visagrunt
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13 Jan 2012, 3:04 pm

Janissy wrote:
When a reporter reports what a politician (or anybody) says, they are telling the truth as long as they don't misquote the person. They have reported not on the veracity of the statement, but on the fact that the person said it. The proper place for questioning the veracity of what someone says is in an opinion piece, not a news story. A news story should report merely the fact that they said it.


Is that the responsible course of action?

How quickly does a NYT article that says, "Mitt Romney stated that, 'Obama has made speeches apologizing for America.'," become, "I read in the Times that Obama's apologizing for America?"

If you are a critical consumer of news and information, you might well look behind Mr. Romney's statement. But how many readers exercise that same scrutiny? And frankly, how often can any of us do that much digging. Most of us have jobs, families, hobbies, and very, very important television to watch. At some point, I rely on the journals I trust to present the news to me in a fully formed fashion.


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13 Jan 2012, 3:27 pm

spongy wrote:
Newspapers try to tell the truth.
That being said there are several sides to each story and in order to achieve a accurate representation of what happened you usually need to do research on several different newspapers that can provide opposite points of view since each of the newspapers try to make its side look like the right one and in order to do so they usually omit some of the facts that make their side look badly.


I don't know about newspapers, but in Canada, news broadcasts must tell the truth.

Fox Shut Out of Canada Because of a Law Against Lying During Newscasts


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