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Robert Zubrin: the importance of space for mankind.

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iamnotaparakeet
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06 Jan 2012, 12:05 am

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKZW61IXvsc[/youtube]



Vigilans
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06 Jan 2012, 1:32 am

I think Zubrin is right. I have read his book The Case for Mars and he has a very strong argument.


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iamnotaparakeet
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06 Jan 2012, 2:45 am

Vigilans wrote:
I think Zubrin is right. I have read his book The Case for Mars and he has a very strong argument.


For Christmas my wife got me his book, How To Live On Mars. Thanks for pointing out this author though, it's rather strange that I had started thinking along the same lines as he before I heard of him, but a lot of what he says in the Mars Society youtube talks and in the Mars Underground films I really agree with. Not 100% with everything, but he has a lot of good to say. It would be great to finally get out there and do what we could have done since the 70's even and yet just plain didn't. It is annoying when thought about to hear all the multitude of excuses developed by NASA bureaucrats as to why they need more time to do nothing but sit around and collect paychecks. I did like the shuttle though, but it should have been built better and maintained better - if they're going to do that, do that right, you know? As it is though, as I'm sure Zubrin says in probably more detail in The Case for Mars, the technology for sending humans safely to Mars already exists and it can be done cheaply too.

You know this though Vigilans, but this clip of one of Zubrin's lectures basically says everything:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Gwk6FmiAKCo[/youtube]

It would be great if enough people listened and finally we got out of Low Earth Orbit and started the colonization of Mars.



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06 Jan 2012, 3:39 am

Why stop at Mars? Interstellar space should be colonized.



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06 Jan 2012, 6:25 am

androbot2084 wrote:
Why stop at Mars? Interstellar space should be colonized.


Two reasons:

1. The speed of light cannot be even closely approximated by massive vessels. Too much energy is required. See how mass increases relativistcally with velocity. Read any textbook on relativity theory.

2. We are too short lived. If we could live 10,000 years and stay sane then we could make it to far out stars even a tenth the speed of light.

Bottom line: Forget about getting out of the solar system. It is not going to happen.

ruveyn



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06 Jan 2012, 7:41 am

androbot2084 wrote:
Why stop at Mars? Interstellar space should be colonized.

Who said we'd stop at mars?


ruveyn wrote:
Two reasons:

1. The speed of light cannot be even closely approximated by massive vessels. Too much energy is required. See how mass increases relativistcally with velocity. Read any textbook on relativity theory.

2. We are too short lived. If we could live 10,000 years and stay sane then we could make it to far out stars even a tenth the speed of light.

Bottom line: Forget about getting out of the solar system. It is not going to happen.

ruveyn


Either way. The solar system has plenty of moons and then we have the extra solar planets. Also, let's have some long term projects, we could try to branch out slowly.

We know that the speed of light is a limit (in fact, the limit is smaller) , but we do not know yet if straight line travel is the only way...


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06 Jan 2012, 9:50 am

androbot2084 wrote:
Why stop at Mars?


Like Vex said, nobody said we'd stop at Mars. Mars, though, having much lower fuel costs, a 24 hour 39 minute day which would allow for better agriculture than on the moon (although with artificial lighting subsurface lunar agriculture would still be possible) inside of greenhouses as well as subsurface depending on latitude, and the possibility of giving Mars an atmosphere that's liveable (although not initially breathable since it would mostly be CO2 still), as well as proximity to the asteroid belt also would make Mars a better springboard into the rest of the solar system than Earth.

androbot2084 wrote:
Interstellar space should be colonized.


The space between the stars has less light than Pluto.



iamnotaparakeet
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06 Jan 2012, 11:27 am

ruveyn wrote:
We are too short lived. If we could live 10,000 years and stay sane then we could make it to far out stars even a tenth the speed of light. ruveyn


Within 50 lightyears of Sol, there are 30 other solitary G-type stars: Tau Ceti, 82 Eridani, Delta Pavonis, Beta Hydri, Beta Canum Venaticorum, 61 Virginis, Zeta Tucanae, Beta Comae Berenices, Kappa¹ Ceti, 61 Ursae Majoris, Alpha Mensae, Iota Persei, Eta Boötis, Lambda Serpentis, HR3259, Lambda Aurigae, HR683, HR6998, 58 Eridani, HR8, 18 Scorpii, 47 Ursae Majoris, 72 Herculis, Nu² Lupi, HR7898, I Hydrae, 20 Leonis Minoris, HR209, 31 Aquilae, & Mu Arae. (Link: http://www.atlasoftheuniverse.com/50lys.html )


If it were possible to travel at 10% the speed of light, which has little appreciable relativistic effects of either time dilation or mass increase, then a trip of 50 lightyears radius would take about 500 years. Now, yes, of course this is longer than a single generation can be expected to live nowadays, so essentially such a ship to travel that distance would need to be a generation ship. It would not be requiring 10,000 years and a single generation, and really there are people living in far worse conditions on Earth for their entire lives, so being aboard a generation ship, training ones own children as apprentices of ones own trade (as each person's knowledge could be treated to ensure it be passed on) and being able to look out upon the stars at will by just going to an observation deck or other place with windows, would have the possibility of actually being awesome too if done right.



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06 Jan 2012, 11:55 am

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
We are too short lived. If we could live 10,000 years and stay sane then we could make it to far out stars even a tenth the speed of light. ruveyn


Within 50 lightyears of Sol, there are 30 other solitary G-type stars: Tau Ceti, 82 Eridani, Delta Pavonis, Beta Hydri, Beta Canum Venaticorum, 61 Virginis, Zeta Tucanae, Beta Comae Berenices, Kappa¹ Ceti, 61 Ursae Majoris, Alpha Mensae, Iota Persei, Eta Boötis, Lambda Serpentis, HR3259, Lambda Aurigae, HR683, HR6998, 58 Eridani, HR8, 18 Scorpii, 47 Ursae Majoris, 72 Herculis, Nu² Lupi, HR7898, I Hydrae, 20 Leonis Minoris, HR209, 31 Aquilae, & Mu Arae. (Link: http://www.atlasoftheuniverse.com/50lys.html )


If it were possible to travel at 10% the speed of light, which has little appreciable relativistic effects of either time dilation or mass increase, then a trip of 50 lightyears radius would take about 500 years. Now, yes, of course this is longer than a single generation can be expected to live nowadays, so essentially such a ship to travel that distance would need to be a generation ship. It would not be requiring 10,000 years and a single generation, and really there are people living in far worse conditions on Earth for their entire lives, so being aboard a generation ship, training ones own children as apprentices of ones own trade (as each person's knowledge could be treated to ensure it be passed on) and being able to look out upon the stars at will by just going to an observation deck or other place with windows, would have the possibility of actually being awesome too if done right.


Mistype on my part. I meant to say that even with a 10,000 year life span and going at 10 percent of light speed we could NOT make it to any but the nearest stars, say Alpha Centuri.

We are not psychologically suited to live in a tin can, lifetimes on end. We are children of the sun and sky. Forget generation ships. They will produce insanity and then death.

ruveyn



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06 Jan 2012, 12:41 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Mistype on my part. I meant to say that even with a 10,000 year life span and going at 10 percent of light speed we could NOT make it to any but the nearest stars, say Alpha Centuri.

We are not psychologically suited to live in a tin can, lifetimes on end. We are children of the sun and sky. Forget generation ships. They will produce insanity and then death.

ruveyn


43 years to get to Alpha Centauri? I'd go. Psychology is overrated.



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06 Jan 2012, 1:00 pm

40 years is the tried and true amount of time to wander in the interstellar wilderness before arriving at the promised land. Once a planet is populated they can springboard to the next star until the whole galaxy is populated.



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06 Jan 2012, 3:46 pm

Zubrin is another dark nuclear lord who invented the atomic bomb that never dies.



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06 Jan 2012, 9:19 pm

androbot2084 wrote:
40 years is the tried and true amount of time to wander in the interstellar wilderness[...]


How was the trip?



iamnotaparakeet
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06 Jan 2012, 9:20 pm

androbot2084 wrote:
Zubrin is another dark nuclear lord who invented the atomic bomb that never dies.


What the Fart is that suppose to even mean?



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06 Jan 2012, 9:51 pm

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

43 years to get to Alpha Centauri? I'd go. Psychology is overrated.


You would not live long enough to get back, assuming you wanted to get back. You also happily assume there is a planet in the Centuri system that is human habitable. There is not an iota of evidence for that.

ruveyn



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06 Jan 2012, 9:55 pm

Zubrin invented the nuclear salt water rocket which is basically an atomic explosion that never dies until all the fuel is consumed. Pretty scary stuff.