Thoughts on the global financial crisis
I was asked by Joker to add my 2 cents on this in another thread, so I’m making a separate thread in order to avoid derailing the existing one. Please keep in mind that I will be simplifying at some points and that some of these things are outside my field of expertise. I think the ideal way to do this is to start by explaining how things are interconnected.
To start in the U.S, banks made bad loans to customers, which they sold to investment banks, the investment banks bundled the loans into so called “collateralized debt obligations” the houses that were purchased with the loans were the collateral in this case. This works as long as the value of houses kept going up, because the banks would take ownership of the houses in the case of the debtor not being able to pay the mortgage and sell the house which would result in a positive transaction for the bank. However, when housing prices collapse it means that the bank is now stuck with a series of losses on loans where the collateral does not cover the balance of the loan.
The fundamental problem in the US was that a mortgage is tied to a house, not the person who took out the mortgage in order to buy said house. The benefit of this is that the U.S workforce is extremely mobile the downside is that a person can walk away from their debt, resulting in a loss on a bank’s balance sheet. In essence if someone borrows $250.000 to buy a house, the value of the house drops by 50% to $125.000 and the person walks away the bank is left with a loss of $125.000. As I said earlier, this only works as long as housing value doesn’t drop.
The problem here was that the banks had made a lot of loans to bad payers that were likely to only be able to pay their loans as long as they had the “teaser” rates for the first period (which varied between banks). Instead of doing as banks had done for many years prior, namely make loans to “safe payers” IE people who could and were likely to pay their loans and be happy with the interest payments, the banks sold the loans to investment banks, meaning that whether or not the debtor would pay became of pretty much no importance to those types of banks.
To summarize, the problem was that at the time of the financial crisis, the entire US economy was a Ponzi-scheme that was dependent on housing prices never going down, but they did. When housing prices dropped, the following was the result:
The payment on CDOs stopped, thus they became worthless as investments, which resulted in the investment banks that had them on the books had to bank massive losses. Further, they had insured themselves against this through companies like AIG with credit default swaps, meaning that if the securities dropped, the companies such as AIG had to pay out. However, AIG among others had sold much more insurance than their cash could cover for, meaning that once the CDOs went down, they couldn’t pay out to their customers and so the disaster hit every part of the chain.
The result was a liquidity crisis, which entails that pension plans, the entire public sector and large parts of the private sector are unable to borrow money to pay their obligations and fund operations. Very few companies and public sector entities pay their way with cash balances, they keep enough as current assets (assets that can be converted to cash in a short period of time) to pay their current liabilities and then fund their operations with borrowed money.
In order to prevent this freezing of liquid assets, the governments of the world printed money in order to add capital to the markets in a Keynesian move, which resulted in public debt going up. However, this move was needed as the devastation that would have taken place without it would have been much greater. People’s life savings gone due to banks going bankrupt, companies going under and thus more people losing their jobs, the public sector unable to pay its employees and thus even more jobs gone.
The aftermath
After the whole CDO Ponzi-scheme went tits up, the result was that the market was suddenly aware of risk again and started looking at debt across the globe and decided that certain countries had amassed debt through reckless voter and government behavior over the last 10 years or so of a bull market.
I say reckless voter behavior, because the voters regularly voted for the candidates and parties that offered the voter more benefits and an increased standard of living, regardless of if the country had the economy to do this. My fundamental view on democracy is that ultimately the voters are responsible for the actions of their representatives. So by voting for unsustainable debt based growth, they put it on the “grandchildren account”. Furthermore, a lot of what money was spent on, such as increased salaries and pensions for public sector workers are non-profit generating expenditures.
For instance, if a country were to borrow let’s say $2.000.000.000 to build a nuclear power plant that would in reduce the country’s need to import energy and thus reduce energy costs and create jobs within the nuclear sector in their country. That’s an investment with a profit-generating potential. However, if you put the money into things that go “poof” then you are burning capital.
In individual terms, it’s the difference between borrowing to buy a house or fund your education as opposed to borrowing to go on vacation.
The problem is that in Europe there is the potential for a crisis of US magnitude and that’s what the IMF and ECB among others have been trying to prevent. The interest you pay on a loan is at least partially based on how much of a risk you are, so when the market went “risk off” the result was that interest on debt in countries where the debt was gigantic was higher interest. However, unlike the US the Euro countries have given up the ability to print their own currency, thus they are unable to inflate their way out of debt.
Just a quick explanation of how this works:
If you owe someone $10 and the daily salary is $1 per day, you could pay the person back in 10 days. However, if you are able to print money, you could print yourself $5 a day, the value of each dollar would drop, but the amount of you owe stays static. So in essence you would pay back the $10 but the value of each dollar would be 80% less.
As long as a country is able to do this, it can print its way out of debt.
Greece on its own was not a huge problem however Spain and Italy are because of the size of their debt. If they can’t pay their debt, the banks will have to take even bigger losses on their balance sheet, this will also extend to other countries as both banks, private investors and countries lend money to each other. This will cause another liquidity crisis, since countries have now used their big guns to keep everything afloat after the U.S crisis, and now have a much smaller toolbox.
If there is anything you’d like me to elaborate on, please let me know.
TM Your synopsis is fairly accurate with one significant exception. The banks in the U.S. paid off politicians and regulators as the Ponzi scheme developed. In fact, banks were rarely held accountable for anything -- I know. Having spent two years trying to get a bank to honor my paycheck written on its bank(Section 3 of the UCC clearly states a check is payable on demand). I even contacted the Obama White House twice with documentation of federal crimes by The Fed and The OCC. OWH never even acknowledged my correspondence. The U.S. Justice Department would not address any of my issues except to say my civil rights complaint did involve police brutality therefore the would not pursue. We now live in the United Banks of America.
Worse the regulators are still allowing the banks do any damn thing they please.
The major problem I see is the upper management of the banks did not seem to even care about the long term health of the bank as a company. It's hard for me to believe they really were stupid enough to believe the housing bubble would never burst. Ordinary borrowers being ignorant is one thing, but I have a hard time believing the people on top were that stupid. It seems they simply didn't care and were milking the thing for all its worth, so they could have a reason to pat themselves on the back and keep raising their own already astronomical salaries, with their golden parachute ready to deploy as soon as the s**t hit the fan. Our entire financial system is run by dyed in the wool sociopaths, and they have the means to control the government as well.
Joker
Veteran
Joined: 19 Mar 2011
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,593
Location: North Carolina The Tar Heel State :)
To start in the U.S, banks made bad loans to customers, which they sold to investment banks, the investment banks bundled the loans into so called “collateralized debt obligations” the houses that were purchased with the loans were the collateral in this case. This works as long as the value of houses kept going up, because the banks would take ownership of the houses in the case of the debtor not being able to pay the mortgage and sell the house which would result in a positive transaction for the bank. However, when housing prices collapse it means that the bank is now stuck with a series of losses on loans where the collateral does not cover the balance of the loan.
The fundamental problem in the US was that a mortgage is tied to a house, not the person who took out the mortgage in order to buy said house. The benefit of this is that the U.S workforce is extremely mobile the downside is that a person can walk away from their debt, resulting in a loss on a bank’s balance sheet. In essence if someone borrows $250.000 to buy a house, the value of the house drops by 50% to $125.000 and the person walks away the bank is left with a loss of $125.000. As I said earlier, this only works as long as housing value doesn’t drop.
The problem here was that the banks had made a lot of loans to bad payers that were likely to only be able to pay their loans as long as they had the “teaser” rates for the first period (which varied between banks). Instead of doing as banks had done for many years prior, namely make loans to “safe payers” IE people who could and were likely to pay their loans and be happy with the interest payments, the banks sold the loans to investment banks, meaning that whether or not the debtor would pay became of pretty much no importance to those types of banks.
To summarize, the problem was that at the time of the financial crisis, the entire US economy was a Ponzi-scheme that was dependent on housing prices never going down, but they did. When housing prices dropped, the following was the result:
The payment on CDOs stopped, thus they became worthless as investments, which resulted in the investment banks that had them on the books had to bank massive losses. Further, they had insured themselves against this through companies like AIG with credit default swaps, meaning that if the securities dropped, the companies such as AIG had to pay out. However, AIG among others had sold much more insurance than their cash could cover for, meaning that once the CDOs went down, they couldn’t pay out to their customers and so the disaster hit every part of the chain.
The result was a liquidity crisis, which entails that pension plans, the entire public sector and large parts of the private sector are unable to borrow money to pay their obligations and fund operations. Very few companies and public sector entities pay their way with cash balances, they keep enough as current assets (assets that can be converted to cash in a short period of time) to pay their current liabilities and then fund their operations with borrowed money.
In order to prevent this freezing of liquid assets, the governments of the world printed money in order to add capital to the markets in a Keynesian move, which resulted in public debt going up. However, this move was needed as the devastation that would have taken place without it would have been much greater. People’s life savings gone due to banks going bankrupt, companies going under and thus more people losing their jobs, the public sector unable to pay its employees and thus even more jobs gone.
The aftermath
After the whole CDO Ponzi-scheme went tits up, the result was that the market was suddenly aware of risk again and started looking at debt across the globe and decided that certain countries had amassed debt through reckless voter and government behavior over the last 10 years or so of a bull market.
I say reckless voter behavior, because the voters regularly voted for the candidates and parties that offered the voter more benefits and an increased standard of living, regardless of if the country had the economy to do this. My fundamental view on democracy is that ultimately the voters are responsible for the actions of their representatives. So by voting for unsustainable debt based growth, they put it on the “grandchildren account”. Furthermore, a lot of what money was spent on, such as increased salaries and pensions for public sector workers are non-profit generating expenditures.
For instance, if a country were to borrow let’s say $2.000.000.000 to build a nuclear power plant that would in reduce the country’s need to import energy and thus reduce energy costs and create jobs within the nuclear sector in their country. That’s an investment with a profit-generating potential. However, if you put the money into things that go “poof” then you are burning capital.
In individual terms, it’s the difference between borrowing to buy a house or fund your education as opposed to borrowing to go on vacation.
The problem is that in Europe there is the potential for a crisis of US magnitude and that’s what the IMF and ECB among others have been trying to prevent. The interest you pay on a loan is at least partially based on how much of a risk you are, so when the market went “risk off” the result was that interest on debt in countries where the debt was gigantic was higher interest. However, unlike the US the Euro countries have given up the ability to print their own currency, thus they are unable to inflate their way out of debt.
Just a quick explanation of how this works:
If you owe someone $10 and the daily salary is $1 per day, you could pay the person back in 10 days. However, if you are able to print money, you could print yourself $5 a day, the value of each dollar would drop, but the amount of you owe stays static. So in essence you would pay back the $10 but the value of each dollar would be 80% less.
As long as a country is able to do this, it can print its way out of debt.
Greece on its own was not a huge problem however Spain and Italy are because of the size of their debt. If they can’t pay their debt, the banks will have to take even bigger losses on their balance sheet, this will also extend to other countries as both banks, private investors and countries lend money to each other. This will cause another liquidity crisis, since countries have now used their big guns to keep everything afloat after the U.S crisis, and now have a much smaller toolbox.
If there is anything you’d like me to elaborate on, please let me know.
Thank you TM I enjoyed your post on thoughts on this.
Worse the regulators are still allowing the banks do any damn thing they please.
The government was the originator of the housing scheme quite frankly, just about every President in recent US history has had a program to help people to buy houses. Mostly using Fannie May and Freddie Mac as their tools, hence why Fannie and Freddy were among the hardest hit of the bunch. The "challenge" you speak of here stems from Campaign financing issues, its the same reason why no President can really criticize Israel.
A lot of the people on top did see it coming, hence why several banks including Goldman-Sachs made quite a bit of money on it by shorting mortgage backed securities. Michael Burry did the exact same thing with his fund and he operated unrelated to the big banks. People forget that a corporations goal is to maximize shareholder value, taking care of people is the governments job.
As for the sociopath thing, its actually good for society that corporations behave as sociopaths because part of running a successful company means having to make decisions that inevitably leads to negative consequences for someone.
For instance, its not a fun thing to fire X people but if it keeps Y people working its better than both X and Y getting fired. The whole thing hinges on the government though. The job of the government is to go "hold it there, it may not be ideal to build a coal plant next to that kindergarten" however with the way the US finances political campaigns any person who wants a chance to get elected has to take money from a corporation and its very hard to bite the hand that feeds you. However, you cannot blame companies for exploiting this, you have to blame the jackasses in government who voted for the reforms.
The jackasses in government were voted on by the people, since everyone gets 1 vote so in the end the lion's share of the blame rests on the voters. That's the key here, people voting for people who will actually change things. When the Teabaggers and other people voting against their interest put a bunch of morons in Congress, the result is that President Obama and the Democrats are unable to do anything because the Republicans are fighting tooth and nail to keep corporations in power. Now, the democrats are not that much better, both parties are corporatist at this point and Obama is a right-winger by objective political standards. He's to the right of both Reagan and Nixon and arguably George H.W Bush.
This whole aftermath that we are now experiencing is because the economy is very dependent on politicians to act competently and effectively, unfortunately two things politicians generally are not is competent and effective. If the US bailout had been significantly bigger, much of the aftermath would most likely have been avoided since the result of a bailout that was something like 30% of what it needed to be, combined with the debt situation on a state and municipal level was that something like 600.000 government jobs and millions of private sector jobs were lost, something which is a huge problem when your economy is demand dependent such as the US.
There was simply not enough money available in the hands of consumers.
Joker
Veteran
Joined: 19 Mar 2011
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,593
Location: North Carolina The Tar Heel State :)
Think of the world like a Zoo, the government are the zoo keepers, the cages etc and the private sector are the animals. If the Zoo keepers f**k up, you can't blame the python for devouring a kid or two.
Joker
Veteran
Joined: 19 Mar 2011
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,593
Location: North Carolina The Tar Heel State :)
Think of the world like a Zoo, the government are the zoo keepers, the cages etc and the private sector are the animals. If the Zoo keepers f**k up, you can't blame the python for devouring a kid or two.
I do not blame the speical interests groups but I do blame the bad investements they make. Lobbyists are to blame as well and for the fact that captialism is a good thing it lacks regualtion no?
Think of the world like a Zoo, the government are the zoo keepers, the cages etc and the private sector are the animals. If the Zoo keepers f**k up, you can't blame the python for devouring a kid or two.
I do not blame the speical interests groups but I do blame the bad investements they make. Lobbyists are to blame as well and for the fact that captialism is a good thing it lacks regualtion no?
You either need to leave capitalism completely unregulated so that it self-regulates perfectly itself or you have to put regulations in place which hamper the self regulation but also reduces the volatility of the system. In a non-regulated capitalist system, the people who did bad business would have gone bankrupt and we'd have started over, now they get bailouts.
Joker
Veteran
Joined: 19 Mar 2011
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,593
Location: North Carolina The Tar Heel State :)
Think of the world like a Zoo, the government are the zoo keepers, the cages etc and the private sector are the animals. If the Zoo keepers f**k up, you can't blame the python for devouring a kid or two.
I do not blame the speical interests groups but I do blame the bad investements they make. Lobbyists are to blame as well and for the fact that captialism is a good thing it lacks regualtion no?
You either need to leave capitalism completely unregulated so that it self-regulates perfectly itself or you have to put regulations in place which hamper the self regulation but also reduces the volatility of the system. In a non-regulated capitalist system, the people who did bad business would have gone bankrupt and we'd have started over, now they get bailouts.
I understand but capitalism in America never slef-regulates just look at the housing crisis we are in not to mention that we save the auto industry yet not many amerians have the money to afford a new car. Or be able to afford to fill the car up with gas either.
-stokes conspiracy embers-
Gold and other commodities are a classic "safe haven" and when you add that there are now more commercial uses for gold as opposed to it holding a certain value based on people <3 gold. Stocks tend to do well in times with high inflation, as does government bonds that are inflation protected. Real estate tends to do decently, and if there is a ton of inflation, I'd try to and borrow my ass off as soon as possible since much of the loan will be inflated away.
Think of the world like a Zoo, the government are the zoo keepers, the cages etc and the private sector are the animals. If the Zoo keepers f**k up, you can't blame the python for devouring a kid or two.
I do not blame the speical interests groups but I do blame the bad investements they make. Lobbyists are to blame as well and for the fact that captialism is a good thing it lacks regualtion no?
You either need to leave capitalism completely unregulated so that it self-regulates perfectly itself or you have to put regulations in place which hamper the self regulation but also reduces the volatility of the system. In a non-regulated capitalist system, the people who did bad business would have gone bankrupt and we'd have started over, now they get bailouts.
I understand but capitalism in America never slef-regulates just look at the housing crisis we are in not to mention that we save the auto industry yet not many amerians have the money to afford a new car. Or be able to afford to fill the car up with gas either.
The capitalism in America doesn't self regulate because the government is too involved in it. In essence, the government allowed corporations to get so big that a bankruptcy has massive collateral damage risk associated with it. I largely blame Alan Greenspend and the Greenspan Put.
Joker
Veteran
Joined: 19 Mar 2011
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,593
Location: North Carolina The Tar Heel State :)
-stokes conspiracy embers-
The price of gold has incrased because the american dollar has decresed.
-stokes conspiracy embers-
The price of gold has incrased because the american dollar has decresed.
Exactly...and if you look at how much the price of gold went up, you will have a better idea of how overvalued the US dollar is...
Good for me though...I like buying stuff online from the states these days...significantly cheaper, and I'm doing my bit for my American brothers...or at least their corporate masters...
_________________
"Have you got it, yet?..."
Syd Barrett
Joker
Veteran
Joined: 19 Mar 2011
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 7,593
Location: North Carolina The Tar Heel State :)
-stokes conspiracy embers-
The price of gold has incrased because the american dollar has decresed.
Exactly...and if you look at how much the price of gold went up, you will have a better idea of how overvalued the US dollar is...
Good for me though...I like buying stuff online from the states these days...significantly cheaper, and I'm doing my bit for my American brothers...or at least their corporate masters...
My only problem with the corperations is they expolite foreign workers. Even though they are willing to work cheap they still take advantage of them.
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