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puddingmouse
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27 Apr 2012, 5:18 am

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article ... death.html

Sorry for posting a link to the Daily Fail, but that's where I found it. How is it Islamic to have sex with your dead wife? Also, could somebody with more knowledge of Islam than I please explain how lowering the age of marriage to 14 and denying women educational/employment opportunities Islamic?


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Jono
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27 Apr 2012, 7:00 am

I'm not entirely sure that the story is legitimate. However, with regards to laws not allowing women to be educated, that happens in a few other Islamic countries. I only hope that the Egyptian liberals are successful in their campaigns against the Islamism in the egyptian parliament.



Jacoby
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27 Apr 2012, 9:40 am

Egypt will have an Islamist government, that much is almost sure. Their parliament is like 3/4th Islamist. The question seems to be how radical it will be. The Muslim Brotherhood is probably one of the more moderate choices that could take the presidency in Egypt. The secular liberal student aspect of these revolutions in the Middle East has been be hugely overstated, what has been driving them has been Islamists. From relatively moderate Islamists like the Muslim Brotherhood to radical Al Qaeda aligned ones.



Kjas
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27 Apr 2012, 10:24 am

I think you need to consider the difference between something which is Islamic VS. something which is cultural.

Eg. In KSA (Saudi Arabia) women are not allowed to drive. This is a cultural decision, it is not an "Islamic" decision, as is widely touted in western media. In other Islamic countries, women are allowed to drive. There is nothing against it in the Quran, and as such it is not an "Islamic" decision, but a cultural one.

I would suggest that the education and employment parts of that article are culturally based decisions, not Islamic. As for the rest, I cannot say. Marriageable age has always been quite low in many Arab cultures, and I know in the past the 14-16 age range has been widely accepted, I am not sure it is simply a custom or there is another reason otherwise.


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Jacoby
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27 Apr 2012, 10:40 am

Kjas wrote:
I think you need to consider the difference between something which is Islamic VS. something which is cultural.

Eg. In KSA (Saudi Arabia) women are not allowed to drive. This is a cultural decision, it is not an "Islamic" decision, as is widely touted in western media. In other Islamic countries, women are allowed to drive. There is nothing against it in the Quran, and as such it is not an "Islamic" decision, but a cultural one.

I would suggest that the education and employment parts of that article are culturally based decisions, not Islamic. As for the rest, I cannot say. Marriageable age has always been quite low in many Arab cultures, and I know in the past the 14-16 age range has been widely accepted, I am not sure it is simply a custom or there is another reason otherwise.


Coincidentally, I read a little about Islam the other night. I was wondering if there had ever been a Muslim MLB player and there has been 1, Sam Khalifa. His wikipedia page liked to his father Rashad Khalifa, who was a very prominent figure in a movement within Islam that only believed the Quran. Apparently, most of the laws and customs attributed to modern Islam(Sharia and circumcision for example) aren't even in the Quran but rather the Hadith and Sunnah.



Jono
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27 Apr 2012, 12:28 pm

Jacoby wrote:
Egypt will have an Islamist government, that much is almost sure. Their parliament is like 3/4th Islamist. The question seems to be how radical it will be. The Muslim Brotherhood is probably one of the more moderate choices that could take the presidency in Egypt. The secular liberal student aspect of these revolutions in the Middle East has been be hugely overstated, what has been driving them has been Islamists. From relatively moderate Islamists like the Muslim Brotherhood to radical Al Qaeda aligned ones.


The secular liberal students were actually the ones who started the revolution while the Islamists tried to hijack it. The issue is not that most people in Egypt prefer an Islamist government but rather that secular groups are less organized politically than Islamist ones.



all_white
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27 Apr 2012, 1:44 pm

I really do not know why anyone would want to make such a bizarre law. This reminds me of the breast milk issue. 8O

Kjas wrote:
I think you need to consider the difference between something which is Islamic VS. something which is cultural.

Eg. In KSA (Saudi Arabia) women are not allowed to drive. This is a cultural decision, it is not an "Islamic" decision, as is widely touted in western media. In other Islamic countries, women are allowed to drive. There is nothing against it in the Quran, and as such it is not an "Islamic" decision, but a cultural one.


The reason Western media confuses Arab cultural customs with Islam is that Muslims do so as well. Western journalists, not being experts on Islam or the Koran, are only printing what they're told by Muslim clerics, and assuming that they'll know what they're talking about (a very foolish assumption to make).

Many deceived Muslims believe that certain practices are Islamic because that's what their leaders are telling them. In fact most of them are merely cultural. Most Muslim leaders lie to their people and tell them "you must do this, it's what Muslims do" and everyone believes them.

Example: enforcing the hijab is merely cultural. There is NOTHING in the Koran saying that women must cover their hair, yet most Muslims believe that there is, and that the hijab is "Islamic." In fact it is nothing but a cultural Arab custom. All the Koran tells women to do is "draw their veils over their bosoms." It says nothing about hair, yet most practicing Muslims are utterly convinced that it must do, somewhere. It doesn't help matters much that they're only allowed to read the Koran in Arabic. If their native language is not Arabic, then they've never even been able to read the Koran for themselves, to find out whether all the things they're being ordered to do are actually in there or not. Anyway, even if they could read it, questioning it is usually punishable by death in strict countries. 8O



simon_says
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27 Apr 2012, 2:03 pm

Islam is not just rooted in the Koran but also the Hadith and Sunnah. Collected stories attributed to (or about) Muhammed that are then analyzed for meaning. So you have to check all three to see what traditions might or might not be considered islamic to someone somewhere.

Another example of a cultural tradition is the clitoridectomy.



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27 Apr 2012, 3:31 pm

Jono wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
Egypt will have an Islamist government, that much is almost sure. Their parliament is like 3/4th Islamist. The question seems to be how radical it will be. The Muslim Brotherhood is probably one of the more moderate choices that could take the presidency in Egypt. The secular liberal student aspect of these revolutions in the Middle East has been be hugely overstated, what has been driving them has been Islamists. From relatively moderate Islamists like the Muslim Brotherhood to radical Al Qaeda aligned ones.


The secular liberal students were actually the ones who started the revolution while the Islamists tried to hijack it. The issue is not that most people in Egypt prefer an Islamist government but rather that secular groups are less organized politically than Islamist ones.


I don't think it's just organization, there just is simply a lot of more Islamists. Egypt is a large country and the students are only small minority. Students and leftists were also a huge part of the Iranian revolution back in 1979.



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28 Apr 2012, 11:31 am

puddingmouse wrote:
http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-2135434/Outrage-Egypt-plans-farewell-intercourse-law-husbands-sex-dead-wives-hours-AFTER-death.html

Sorry for posting a link to the Daily Fail, but that's where I found it. How is it Islamic to have sex with your dead wife?

Also, could somebody with more knowledge of Islam than I please explain how lowering the age of marriage to 14 and denying women educational/employment opportunities Islamic?



Because Islam is about domination, conquest and keeping others ground to the dirt under their feet. It is very much like Christianity was in the middle ages but without the centralized organization which allowed it to evolve. Islam is stuck and will forever be stuck in the 900's.

Lowering the age of marriage to 14 and denying education/employment opportunities is all about domination, control and keeping another human being subservient.

Sex with dead wife ... well, I guess its a last few hours of dominating the poor wife while she's still warm.

Overall, very Islamic.



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28 Apr 2012, 3:06 pm

Islam is the youngest abrahmic faith their laws are based om the Torah and the Bible. It will take a long time for Islam to go through a religious reformation much like how the proestants did when they broke away from the catholic church. Judaism went through religious reformation first then christanity did now if Islam does their could be a chance for peace in the middel east.



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28 Apr 2012, 3:21 pm

Dantac wrote:
Overall, very Islamic.


For proper adherence to religious doctrine, Egypt's government should vote to lower the marriage age and age of consent to nine years old. All in the name of fidelity to the faith, you understand.



Last edited by Tequila on 28 Apr 2012, 3:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Joker
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28 Apr 2012, 3:27 pm

Tequila wrote:
Dantac wrote:
Overall, very Islamic.


For proper adherence to religious doctrine, Egypt's government should vote to lower the marriage age and age of consent to nine years old. That would be truly "Islamic", you understand.


Indeed that would be very islamic but I do not think the Egypt's government would do that.



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28 Apr 2012, 3:28 pm

Joker wrote:
Indeed that would be very islamic but I do not think the Egypt's government would do that.


Why on Earth not? Is condoning paedophilia not quite acceptable to the raging Islamist hordes because of what decent people (who don't want to bang pre-teenage girls) will say?



Joker
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28 Apr 2012, 3:31 pm

Tequila wrote:
Joker wrote:
Indeed that would be very islamic but I do not think the Egypt's government would do that.


Why on Earth not? Is condoning paedophilia not quite acceptable to the raging Islamist hordes because of what decent people (who don't want to bang pre-teenage girls) will say?


In America those laws would not work but in the Middel East they could christians could have such laws as well but we went through 800 years of religious reformation when the proestatans broke away from the Catholic Church.



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28 Apr 2012, 3:36 pm

We did. And that's why, in large part, many of us (apart from the U.S. Christian headcases) live comfortable, well-adjusted lives rather than obsessing over camels, treating women like slime and gleefully having public executions.