Free Will

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I watched a movie tonight called The Adjustment Bureau. There is one scene in particular that piqued my interest. It is a scene where a character known as Thompson explains free will.

I agree and disagree with Thompson's explanation of free will. Let me address both starting with my disagreement.

Where I disagree with him is in his explanation of free will, or the fundamental nature of free will itself. As a believer in Jehovah God, the bible states that we were made in his image, and in the likeness of God. (Genesis 1:26) Since Jehovah God has free will, it is only reasonable to conclude that this gift was endowed upon the first human pair. (Genesis 1:27,28) In the likeness of God simply means we mirror God's many qualities like love, justice, wisdom, and so forth; including free will. (Galatians 5:22,23) As imperfect beings - in no small part thanks to Adam, Eve and Satan (Genesis 3:1-15; Romans 5:12) - we are unable to reflect God's qualities perfectly. But when it comes to free will this is perhaps the one aspect of God's qualities that humans use to its fullest. In what way? Jehovah God, through his son's perfect random sacrifice, has given humanity the most powerful use for their free will in deciding if they will exercise faith in Jesus' sacrifice and serve Jehovah, or to not serve him. (Deuteronomy 30:19, 20; Proverbs 27:11; Isaiah 48:18) While we live in this time period Jehovah God does not force this choice on anyone. (Zephaniah 2:2,3; 2 Corinthians 5:18-20)

Where I agree with Thompson are his statements on the "appearance of free will" and "control over the important things". As created beings our Heavenly Father has endowed us with many wonderful traits but the one thing we were never gifted with is the ability to govern ourselves or others. Jeremiah agrees; "I well know, O Jehovah, that to earthling man his way does not belong. It does not belong to man who is walking even to direct his step." (Jeremiah 10:23) What has been the result of centuries of humans trying to direct the steps of millions? Wise King Solomon answers, "man has dominated man to his injury" (Ecclesiastes 8:9) and those words are more truthful today than they were during Solomon's time. Only Jehovah God has the right to govern mankind because he “created all things, and because of [his] will they existed and were created." (Revelation 4:11) As Thompson concludes if left to humanity we would literally destroy ourselves. Similar words were spoken by Jesus over 1,900 years ago. Referring to a cataclysmic event he called the great tribulation he states that wicked mankind will bring themselves to brink of destruction to a degree that he adds, "In fact, unless those days were cut short, no flesh would be saved; but on account of the chosen ones those days will be cut short." (Matthew 24:21,22)

The ultimate expression of "control over the important things" can be seen in the apostle John's inspired words: "Do not be loving either the world or the things in the world. If anyone loves the world, the love of the Father is not in him; because everything in the world — the desire of the flesh and the desire of the eyes and the showy display of one’s means of life — does not originate with the Father, but originates with the world. Furthermore, the world is passing away and so is its desire, but he that does the will of God remains forever." (1 John 2:15-17) The "control over the important things" is fundamentally what's at stake. Jehovah sovereignty, or his right to rule, was challenged by Satan in the very beginning. Through Jehovah's perfect justice he has allowed a set amount of time for Satan to present his case not only before the spiritual realm of angelic beings but also the physical realm of humanity. Our decision to side with Jehovah or Satan is at the very heart of our free will. (Proverbs 27:11)

Beyond the agreements and disagreements, free will is a wonderful gift given by Jehovah God so that we can simply enjoy life. But more important this unique ability we possess can help us serve Jehovah and his interests. How can this be free will? Very simply if you love someone, free will empowers you to do the things they ask out of love.

Last edited by kxmode on 19 Jul 2012, 10:43 am, edited 4 times in total.

Free will doesn't exist. Alter enough things in your brain, and you might even become an atheist.

To be fair (and I can't believe I'm throwing a dog in this fight - I hate free will arguments), the ability of chemicals and injuries to alter or influence behavior does not necessarily indicate that free will does not exist - it does, however, indicate that at the very least free will can be compromised by outside influences.

The distinction is subtle, but important.

Free will is an illusion. All decisions are made as a result of neural activity following chemical and electrical pathways. There is no "third party" distinct from these processes doing any of the decision making. What one perceives as free will are all the alternative courses of action that one could choose; however the one actually chosen is chosen by the brain and its associated processes.

Exactly. Choices are picked out and acted on from a fixed 'program generator' of options. Funnily, a worm has free will. But we say not, because, it surfaces during the rain due to the only choice that its choice generator could possibly make. People would call this instinct and not free will by any measure - but is that really the case?

I've always said everything we do is based on a program of choices and this neural array is entirely "instinctual." We simply have more of "it." that is, more choice options because of a larger brain.

I have free will

I am free Willy. We are all free Willy.

I didn't read the parts with byblical citations.

What hits me about this quote is the description of our history. It is very typical of very many things, and rather interesting, wrong though it is.

Historiography aside, it is very strange to say we have free will over small things, but are too immature for large ones. After all, there are many more observable patterns followed systematically and without conscious input in our daily lives and choice of ties than in historic events. Besides, that large structures of people, or even societies, tend to do strange things is not really an argument against free will, though it fits radical determinism very well.

+ what TallyMan said.

Saying that free will is an illusion, and that behaviour is the consequence of brain alone, is a perfectly coherent a complete position.

However, to argue that "something else" makes free-willed decision also depends on defining humanity at least as a dual state, with a soul, spirit or other immaterial essence in addition to the brain; it also depends on defining how this essence influences corporal behaviour; and, finally, to take brain injuries and such into account, one would have to define how physical reality can have an effect on this immaterial essence.

Ultimately, I can't say that any dual (or ternal, etc.) conception of humanity is wrong. Since it is beyond physical reality, it is beyond physical perception, and beyond our understanding; we will never know who is right in this debate, because it is impossible. However, you will admit that the unitary conception is more simple; and that adding an element of free will is not necessary to understand human experience.

Last edited by enrico_dandolo on 20 Jul 2012, 8:22 am, edited 1 time in total.

I think that people who talk about "free will" are basically just confused. If you carefully pick apart the concepts surrounding the issue, you find that people actually agree on the relevant facts.

FACT 1: My behaviour, as seen from the outside, is entirely consistent with physical laws.
FACT 2: I make choices.

These two facts do not contradict each other.

It's always been my belief that people DO make choices, just choices that are pre-destined by the current configurations of their brains.

Think about it: If you take a guy to an ice-cream shop and have him pick out a flavor, then go back in time and repeat the thing exactly........he picks the same flavor every time.

Yes, we have free will, just what we choose to do with that free will is as deterministic as the universe that surrounds us.

I do not agree with the 2nd fact.

However, I agree that people are confused. I probably am. I also believe that "free will" is comforting as an idea.


If it is determined, it is not free.

Last edited by enrico_dandolo on 20 Jul 2012, 8:28 am, edited 1 time in total.

What do you mean? You don't think that I make choices, or you don't think that you make choices?

I don't believe that either of us make choices.

(Btw, I edited my post after you answered.)

Well, I can't know whether you are being dishonest or not. All I can tell you is that I know that I make choices, in much the same way that I know I exist.

Fundamentally, I agree with you. It's probably better to say that people make choices, just not choices out of free will.

I also agree. There is the "illusion" of free will. i.e. we are presented with a multitude of choices regarding every action we make but the actual choice we take is determined by the electronics and neuro-chemistry of the brain as they are at that moment in time. It is the brain that makes decisions, not some third party. This is fundamental neuro-science; you only have to see the behaviour of those people who's corpus-collosum has been severed to see the consequences regarding "free will" and decision making.