Culturally acceptable child abuse?

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What exactly is child abuse? At first it seems like a straightforward question with straightforward answers. But is it?

What are seen as traditional or cultural norms in one country can be regarded as child abuse in other countries. Some obvious examples to those of us living in the West include:
Female circumcision.
Arranged marriages at the age of puberty.
Child labour.

It is generally thought that physically beating children is child abuse; but that still carries on in many parts of the West as well as the rest of the world. In England it was only a few years ago that corporal punishment in schools was abolished. When I was a child it was considered acceptable and culturally normal for teachers to physically assault pupils who "misbehaved".

When I was 11 years old I did not believe in God, so when I started a new school it seemed perfectly reasonable to me that during the morning assembly that I did not sing the hymns to God / Jesus or say prayers aloud praising God. So I just stood there respectfully alongside the other pupils who were singing and praying. Apparently that was not acceptable; the headmaster noticed my unmoving mouth and escorted me to his office and beat me repeatedly with a cane until I "accepted Jesus as my saviour" and I recited the Lord's Prayer aloud from a prayer book to him. This was the start of an ongoing brutal conflict between the ages of 11 and 15 that often resulted in me being escorted to his office and being beaten for refusing to say prayers aloud in morning assembly.

While it seems unquestionable to me that beating an 11 year old child with a cane until his bottom is bleeding is child abuse, what about the attempted forcible religious indoctrination? Could that be considered child abuse too? It seems to be culturally acceptable in many parts of the world for children to be forcibly indoctrinated with whatever the prevailing religion of their parents / culture is.

This issue came to my mind due to a thread elsewhere on this site. Are the following examples culturally acceptable child abuse committed by a child's parents, or simply traditions that everyone should just accept? :

a) Forcing or otherwise coercing, browbeating or cajoling a child to attend church, mosque, temple etc?
b) Telling a child they will suffer an eternity in hell-fire unless they accept Jesus as their loving saviour?
c) Telling a child they will suffer an eternity in hell-fire unless they pray to Allah five times a day?

More controversially - could fundamentalist parents (Christian, Muslim or otherwise) claim it would be child abuse to NOT "educate" their children in their religious ways, as they truly do believe the child will be damned to hell unless the child is "saved" or "Accepts Jesus into their heart" etc? Those parents truly believe they are doing the best for their child. Is there a right or wrong in this issue or only differing opinions? Is this a black and white issue or are there shades of grey? Does it depend on how harmful / beneficial the "education / indoctrination" is likely to be to the life and happiness of the child as they grow into adulthood?

Is child abuse only what happens in other cultures or what differs from the accepted norm in our own cultures?

My own conclusions:
1) Psychological child abuse can happen in families, with well meaning parents who may not always be doing what is in the best interests of the child despite their belief to the contrary; but what else is a parent to do other than what they believe is the best for the child?

2) Child abuse can be both physical and psychological and that sometimes the state and prevailing culture are actively complicit in it; they just don't call it by its true name.

I think a parent's duty is to raise their children to respect the law and the rights of others without turning them into anxiety-ridden losers. An over-simplified view, perhaps, but it seems to cover the issue.

The hard part is the actual [i]rearing[i] of the child. Spanking or Time-Out? Points & Privileges or "Just do as I say"? Do we argue in front of the children or send them out to the yard? Do their homework for them, hire an expensive tutor, or watch them fail?

The hardest part (for me) of being a parent was standing by and watching one of my children suffer the consequences for his actions.

Could it be considered child abuse if the parents tell their children that the earth is flat and what the children are taught in public school science classrooms about the shape of the earth are lies of the devil? Could it be considered child abuse if those same parents lobby school boards and politicians to ensure that everybody else's children are also taught that the earth is flat and all evidence to the contrary are lies of the devil?

Denying the fact of evolution is just as stupid and just as wrong as to insist that the earth is flat, but there are SO MANY ignorant adults in the USA that for some reason it seems socially acceptable to demand "equal time" for their particular brand of religion in public school science classrooms even though there is absolutely no scientific evidence that supports their viewpoint and much that falsifies it.

I wouldn't go so far as to demand that fundies' children be taken away. If they want their kids to be scientifically illiterate and incapable of reasoning from evidence, then so be it. The world needs ditch diggers and burger flippers. I do have a problem with the fundies sabotaging the science education of everybody else's children though. If the anti-evolution crowd wins, it will almost certainly be disastrous for our country, our species and our planet.

I used to say that politicians who sabotaged science education in public schools should be tried for treason, but someone later informed me that the wording of the laws concerning treason do not quite apply to this situation. Too bad.

Male circumcision

Fnord and others, This is what I was literally told by my wife when I asked her this question. My question is how do I determine if I receive a vision, that it is from God, devil, or an upset stomach. She told me that I had to read the bible. I asked her how do I make sure I am intepreting the bible in the way it is supposed to be interpreted? She told me to go to God, pray to God and ask him. Her answers confused the crap out of me. It is circular logic and I still do not understand it. Do you know what she was trying to convey Fnord? I can't obtain a logical answer on this.

I do not recall a single instance of Jesus trying to beat someone into believing. Granted, I have not read the Bible in years, so it is possible I have forgotten that. But this is a wicked misuse of power and authority, and in my understanding of God, the person who did this is going to have to answer for it. Granted, this does nothing to heal your scars. But I believe what he or she did to be a sin.



This is true, not just of religion. There are all sorts of "indoctrinations" out there. The problem is, you only call it forcible "indoctrination" if it is not what you believe. If it is what you believe, well, then...you are just teaching what is right. I suppose one could say that atheists indoctrinate their children, too.



This is one of those things that I believe ends up not being simple and I am not even sure there is a way to draw a reasonable conclusion. From a parent's perspective, what I can tell you is that I believe God entrusted me with the children He gave me. I take His confidence that I will do the right thing very seriously. To me, this does not mean that I will force feed my children anything at all. It does not mean that they must grow up to love God. What it means is that I must do everything I can...in word and deed...to send them on the path that I--personally--believe is the right one: a personal relationship with God. However, they are beings of free choice and I cannot control their final decision. I will not have to answer for their final decision, but I will have to answer for my conduct and decisions as their guardian on this earth.



Who is to determine what is in the best interest of the child? I think that is where the problem lies.

But I do agree that sometimes well-intended people harm their children. Physically and psychologically. I am not sure I would call it "abuse" per se, which generally deals with the intention infliction of harm, but I would agree that parents cause their children harm, even if they don't intend it.

But beating a child because they will not pray is both physical and emotional abuse. You are aware that you are hurting them while you do it. That is an example when I think people believe the ends justify the means. I think they are wrong.



I agree. 100%

Some abuse. Circumcised males have a lower rate of cancer of the glans penis and a lower rate of STDs.

A circumcised penis is a perfected penis. It undoes God's bad craft by removing a pus pocket which can be loaded with germs and smegma.

ruveyn

Obviously, don't smack your kids around. Don't smack anyone around, for that matter.

I am not in any generally used sense 'religious' or 'spiritual'. My wife, last time we talked about these things, is a theist, though of no particular religion. We have two daughters, one 7 and one 9. The 9 year old is an atheist. My 7 year old believes in God. She sometimes asks 'why does God allow x?'. Quite the conundrum how to work with that.

Psst - there's this new thing called 'personal hygiene'. And whether or not it's a fine thing, it should be for the man to choose, not for the boy to have imposed upon him.

I am grateful to my parents for fixing my dick at age 8 days. I did the same for my male offspring. None of them have ever complained to me about it.

Let us have a thread on circumcision. It is a procedure that lessens disease and promotes cleanliness.

ruvey

Religion doesn't make rational sense. If you try and apply logic to it, you find it goes round in circles and gives you headaches. People tend to go in one of two directions:
1. They ignore it (atheism, agnosticism come through this route, but many simply don't think about their religion beyond "there's a god")
2. They accept it on faith (including claiming that "God is beyond logic"!)

It sounds like you're going down the first route, and this can be difficult when your loved ones are firmly religious. Take some time to think about things, read the bible, research a range of viewpoints (atheist, Christian, even other religions) and see what fits your view of God best. It might be that there isn't one, or that you prefer one denomination over the others; you might even decide to praise Allah instead or take up meditation and work on your karma.

I can recommend atheism. You get to sleep in on Sundays.

I look at God like this. God is infinite in nature with respect to knowledge, wisdom, love, etc. I do not believe that God can be complete nor consistent which I believes fits God's nature. I will try my best to show how even though my communication skills are sub-par to poor. If God has an infinite amount of x then I believe that the amount possible of x is infintely equal or greater than God. Think of a container of milk. As an example let's say we have an infinite amount of milk. The container would have to be infinitely equal or greater than the infinite amount of milk.

Let's try to think of all things that God can do and God can't do. If there are an infinite amount of things that are possible that can be done that exists then is it possible for there to be an infinite amount of things that God can't do. At different points why can't God choose to move some of the members of the set of can't to to the set of those he can do? This would be inconsistent am I correct because God should be able to do all? If he truthfully could not would we not have a missing subset which is the possibility of impossibilites? If the amount of things possible to do are infinite,the amount of things God can do are infinite, the amount of things God can't do are infinite and if God can always transfer from the subset of things God can't do to the subset of things God can do then I ask how can God be either complete or consistent? If he is at different times getting closer to consistency and completion then I ask what if perfection is not an end state but a process that is infinite in nature? This is my view based upon the little understanding I do have.

wouldnt that in the end describe any sentient being in the multiverse?

there could easily be what we would call god, doesnt mean it is a divine entitiy, the cause of existence(as your argument itself so beautifully shows)

Yes.


Yes.

Crippling a child's intellectual development in favor of the parents' superstitious beliefs is just plain wrong. May as well raise the kids in a cave and teach them that anyone from Outside is going to eat them.

circumcision is f****d up, heres a 90 page thread explaining why http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt46886.html

Regarding religion - I think it is fine to tell your kid "I want you to go to church/temple/whatever because I belong to X religion and I want you to learn all about X religion." I think it is NOT fine to tell your kid "I believe in X religion and therefore you must also believe in it or face punishment."
In other words, it's fine to insist that one's child learns about a religion, but not fine to insist that they adopt it as their own. imho

and how do you seperate the two?

hint it is as good as impossible.