To be governed...

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12 Nov 2012, 8:29 am

To be governed is to be watched over, inspected, spied on, directed, legislated at, regulated, docketed, indoctrinated, preached at, controlled, assessed, weighed, censored, ordered about, by men who have neither the right, nor the knowledge, nor the virtue. ... To be governed is to be at every operation, at every transaction, noted, registered, enrolled, taxed, stamped, measured, numbered, assessed, licensed, authorized, admonished, forbidden, reformed, corrected, punished. It is, under the pretext of public utility, and in the name of the general interest, to be placed under contribution, trained, ransomed, exploited, monopolized, extorted, squeezed, mystified, robbed; then, at the slightest resistance, the first word of complaint, to be repressed, fined, despised, harassed, tracked, abused, clubbed, disarmed, choked, imprisoned, judged, condemned, shot, deported, sacrificed, sold, betrayed; and, to crown all, mocked, ridiculed, outraged, dishonoured. That is government; that is its justice; that is its morality.
Idée Générale de la Révolution au XIXe Siècle [The General Idea of the Revolution] (1851);

-Proudhon-

He wrote this in 1851 and it is just as true today.

ruveyn

Oodain
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12 Nov 2012, 9:48 am

to some extent that is true and that is also why governance can have perks over pseudo anarchy.

in a modern context the ideal would be to have the people govern directly, in that case one can always join another group of people should one find the current unbearable.

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12 Nov 2012, 10:52 am

Oodain wrote:

Ho ho. Take the United States for instance. Government by 300,000,000 people or say the adult and aged portion of 200,000,00.

That is impossible. It is chaos. It can't be done. Governance must necessarily by accomplished by a small subset of the entirety. The real trick is to impose enough accountability on the few governors to discourage tyranny and insure a modicum of justice.

The town meeting becomes the town riot when more than 1000 people participate as peers.

ruveyn

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13 Nov 2012, 5:19 am

ruveyn wrote:

Oodain wrote:

not in the digital age it doesnt,

no reason for any actual "physical link" to take place, give it a year or two and quantum encryption will make electronic voting feasible on a massive scale.
the swiss use it for their ballot boxes to digitally count votes much faster than what coud be done manually.

even if a subset is required one can always minimize the ammount of links between the govenors and voters, perhaps even use a digital vote of no confidence.

working as a toggle, so say you saw a speech where the politician was lying out of his teeth, you could go onto the internet and actually toggle between confidence and no confidence, if enough of the population does so action can be automatically initiated.

what we need isnt conventional governance but to change the entire concept, not to something seperate from day to day existence but fully included in it, yet better at dealing with bias.

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13 Nov 2012, 7:36 am

ruveyn wrote:

that's life in the big smoke.

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13 Nov 2012, 8:46 am

Oodain wrote:

not in the digital age it doesnt,

Any computerized conference can be hacked. The only way to be sure is to see with one's own eyes and hear with one's own ears.

I would not trust my liberty to any computer program. I was in the business for 47 years and I know what sort of errors and frauds can happen.

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13 Nov 2012, 9:27 am

ruveyn wrote:

Oodain wrote:

not in the digital age it doesnt,

yet you would trust a human with inherent bias to count accurately in a very stressfull enviroment?

have you read about the swiss quantum encrypion on a chip and how complex that code is compared to even 4096 bit encryptions, something that requires an entire superpower to crack even today?

there will always be a compromise but in this case i think the more accurate and most objective option is digital.
besides paper is easily forged as well, the only sort of encrpytion that is "unbreakable" unless the code itself is obtained are code blocks, preferably in sizes not suitable for human reading, ie hundreds of digits pr individual code.

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13 Nov 2012, 12:05 pm

Oodain wrote:

ruveyn wrote:

Oodain wrote:

not in the digital age it doesnt,

yet you would trust a human with inherent bias to count accurately in a very stressfull enviroment?

.

That is why vote counting is overseen and supervised by members of all parties and why the count is multiply checked. I would trust that more than any computerized voting system. A computerized voting system is an engraved invitation to hack the election.

Who shall watch the watchers? Who shall guard the guardians?

ruveyn

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13 Nov 2012, 12:10 pm

i think you are underestimating the encyption by a couple of orders of magnitude,(quite literally)

it would literally take the worlds fastest computer millenia to crack a quantum code and only a true quantum computer would have any chance of cracking it.

even when they become prevalent enough to warrant concern it would be fairly easy to create a code block system comparable to any onboard security encryption chips used in keeping confidential information today.

i still think humans will be far more inaccurate, if nothing else because paper itself is easy to forge, any numbering system would be much easier to crack than the quantum based equivalent.

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the scent of the tamarillo is pungent and powerfull,
woe be to the nose who nears it.

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13 Nov 2012, 12:15 pm

Oodain wrote:

i think you are underestimating the encyption by a couple of orders of magnitude,

You assume the program does as it is advertised to do. You are naive. In a political context there is a major incentive to put in "back doors" and "trojan horses" to game the system.

You are also away that the general problem of checking a program against its abstract algorithmic specification is recursively unsolvable. It is an instance of the Equivalence Problem for Turing Machines.

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13 Nov 2012, 2:03 pm

It seems to work better than not to be governed.

Somalians be proud.

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13 Nov 2012, 8:12 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:

It seems to work better than not to be governed.

Somalians be proud.

Somalians are better off ungoverned than they ever were under Communist dictatorship

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13 Nov 2012, 8:21 pm

Jacoby wrote:

Vexcalibur wrote:

It seems to work better than not to be governed.

Somalians be proud.

Somalians are better off ungoverned than they ever were under Communist dictatorship

At this stage in our intellectual and social development government is a necessary evil. But be aware, a necessary evil is still an evil. There are no Good Governments and there never have been any. There are only bad governments and worse governments.

ruveyn

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