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hfwang18
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14 Dec 2012, 9:36 pm

This is a thread partially made out of my curiosity, and partially out of my intense guilt for my former political views.

I used to be a libertarian- advocated minarchism, small government, free markets, privatized social services, and all that- I wasn't extreme about it but saw it as an ideal. All of that changed over the course of a few months with the help of a liberal AP US History teacher who explained the value of government in the economy, and a near-fatal illness that even Medicaid was loath to cover. What was worse about it? I'm a lower-middle-class immigrant teen. I'm now a moderate leaning left, don't currently have a coherent ideology and have tried to distance myself from that shameful past as much as possible- I couldn't believe how lacking in empathy I was with my politics.

But it leads me to these questions: Why are people driven towards libertarianism, when it sounds so much like anarchism? Is it the concept of rights? Is it the relaxed social views? Is it the frustration from US-style 2-party politics? Is it lack of empathy? Is it the idea of self-determination? Or is it just simple selfishness and greed?



ruveyn
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14 Dec 2012, 9:44 pm

Libertarians do not want the government to regulate the minute details of their lives or to redistribute the money that they ear. Taxes are bad enough (a necessary evil, because we cannot government without some level of taxation). But taxing with the intent of taking away money those that have a lot of it to give to people who do not have much is charity at gunpoint.

As to the matter of regulating life style, we do not need the Governmental Nanny State to tell us not to have too much candy or to eat our veggies.

ruveyn



hfwang18
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14 Dec 2012, 9:46 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Libertarians do not want the government to regulate the minute details of their lives or to redistribute the money that they ear. Taxes are bad enough (a necessary evil, because we cannot government without some level of taxation). But taxing with the intent of taking away money those that have a lot of it to give to people who do not have much is charity at gunpoint.

As to the matter of regulating life style, we do not need the Governmental Nanny State to tell us not to have too much candy or to eat our veggies.

ruveyn


Problem is, there's a pesky little economics concept called "diminishing marginal utility of money". That's the justification for progressive tax rates- the rich are less efficient with their consumption, so to boost consumption and therefore the overall economy, it is redistributed to those who would have to spend all of it. Has worked quite well.



ronpl
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14 Dec 2012, 9:50 pm

i thought you are asking about the profession 'librarian' :)



ruveyn
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14 Dec 2012, 9:52 pm

hfwang18 wrote:

Problem is, there's a pesky little economics concept called "diminishing marginal utility of money". That's the justification for progressive tax rates- the rich are less efficient with their consumption, so to boost consumption and therefore the overall economy, it is redistributed to those who would have to spend all of it. Has worked quite well.


Stealing money from people that they can afford to lose is still theft.

The only just rate is a flat rate and only on incomes above subsistence.

If the government wants to have a sliding scale of taxes between 0 and 10 percent we can put up with it. God Himself never asked for more than ten percent and then only from people who had land to grow food on or raise cattle on.

ruveyn



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14 Dec 2012, 9:53 pm

I am not against paternalism per se, I guess I am against the force that is necessary to keep government at the center of the universe. If you think that a certain form of governance, great, just don't force it on me. I guess I just hate one size fits all solutions. And just as a fair warning, I am a more anarchist leaning . But initially what pushed me towards libertarianism is food freedom and safety, which seemed to be lacking even with the FDA. Also, the Republicans obsession with subsidies to big oil. I guess they said they were conservative, yet they gave subsidies to companies was just asinine. So I guess though why I stay libertarian (and anarchist) is because I don't believe there is one type of government that is perfect, I just believe you have to do what is right for you. And if you want more paternalism, be my guest, I may join you if it is successful enough. :D



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14 Dec 2012, 9:54 pm

Well I voted for Gary Johnson. I found the notion of ending the IRS and Income Tax and replacing it with a consumption tax appealing. This is because I consider the income tax a invasion of financial privacy.

I'm for ending crazy interventionist wars.

I'm for less centralized government planning on Capital Hill.

However, in discussions with Proggresives, I have explored the idea of State Government and the role it can play as a safety net. If there is a wild fire I don't think a private company should demand payment before saving home threatened. If there is a crime I think we should have a police force.

Yet, our police and emergency services are local city, county, or state services. We don't call 911 and have the FBI show up.

Also, in the past I have collected State Unemployment. Yes I must acknowledge it may have a Federal Subsidy but I still like the local government having final say. I think this is even true of Canada's government and Provincial based health care. Ottawa supports the program but does not run the entire thing.

So, I lean Libertarian regarding a limited Federal government and giving power back to the states which can implement things like RomneyCare if they want to.



zacb
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14 Dec 2012, 9:59 pm

hfwang18 wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Libertarians do not want the government to regulate the minute details of their lives or to redistribute the money that they ear. Taxes are bad enough (a necessary evil, because we cannot government without some level of taxation). But taxing with the intent of taking away money those that have a lot of it to give to people who do not have much is charity at gunpoint.

As to the matter of regulating life style, we do not need the Governmental Nanny State to tell us not to have too much candy or to eat our veggies.

ruveyn


Problem is, there's a pesky little economics concept called "diminishing marginal utility of money". That's the justification for progressive tax rates- the rich are less efficient with their consumption, so to boost consumption and therefore the overall economy, it is redistributed to those who would have to spend all of it. Has worked quite well.


Um, but since they save more, won't that distort the overall percentage compared to the overall population?



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14 Dec 2012, 10:04 pm

I've had the government involved in a good portion of my life, starting at about 10 or 11 years old, stemming from me not wanting to go to school in 5th grade, and getting charged with truancy for simply staying home from school because I hated it, couldn't socialize, and was under lots of stress from changes happening at home and in school. I was threatened juvie/residentials, had to see probation officers, get yelled at by roid-head school cops with attitude problems, see a bunch of "counselors" all when all I wanted was to be left alone.

That'll do it.



hfwang18
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14 Dec 2012, 10:06 pm

zacb wrote:
hfwang18 wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Libertarians do not want the government to regulate the minute details of their lives or to redistribute the money that they ear. Taxes are bad enough (a necessary evil, because we cannot government without some level of taxation). But taxing with the intent of taking away money those that have a lot of it to give to people who do not have much is charity at gunpoint.

As to the matter of regulating life style, we do not need the Governmental Nanny State to tell us not to have too much candy or to eat our veggies.

ruveyn


Problem is, there's a pesky little economics concept called "diminishing marginal utility of money". That's the justification for progressive tax rates- the rich are less efficient with their consumption, so to boost consumption and therefore the overall economy, it is redistributed to those who would have to spend all of it. Has worked quite well.


Um, but since they save more, won't that distort the overall percentage compared to the overall population?


Since they save more, less money is going into the economy. It's the paradox of thrift- saving is fine because of anticipation of future spending, but saving to no end ends up hurting the economy as a whole.



zacb
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14 Dec 2012, 10:16 pm

And this is where I will disagree. Savings creates scarcity for dollars, which raises their value, thus helping the poor. So actually, when you redistribute that money, you will actually have higher inflation, which will hurt the poor, since their income does not keep up with the growth of the economy as much as those who are directly related to businesses.



hfwang18
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14 Dec 2012, 10:33 pm

zacb wrote:
And this is where I will disagree. Savings creates scarcity for dollars, which raises their value, thus helping the poor. So actually, when you redistribute that money, you will actually have higher inflation, which will hurt the poor, since their income does not keep up with the growth of the economy as much as those who are directly related to businesses.


Inflation comes very gradually after the redistribution (sticky prices/wages) and so redistribution has a temporary effect- as aggregate demand increases, output increases. In the long run, the economy is at full employment and producing at LRAS, but redistribution accelerates the expansionary process if in a recession. If the economy is already good...then you work to diminish money supply or raise taxes, etc.



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14 Dec 2012, 10:38 pm

Why not just have something of value backing your currency? Doesn't all that money printing lead to speculative frenzies, ala 1929, 1999, and 2008?



hfwang18
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14 Dec 2012, 10:44 pm

zacb wrote:
Why not just have something of value backing your currency? Doesn't all that money printing lead to speculative frenzies, ala 1929, 1999, and 2008?


Also leads to unstable price levels.



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14 Dec 2012, 10:51 pm

So using what is happening now with Ben Bernanke and the Fed, wouldn't the flood of money be better left saved? Since it would prevent inflation? And while I no doubt agree full employment would be reached, what quality of jobs would those be?



hfwang18
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14 Dec 2012, 11:00 pm

zacb wrote:
So using what is happening now with Ben Bernanke and the Fed, wouldn't the flood of money be better left saved? Since it would prevent inflation? And while I no doubt agree full employment would be reached, what quality of jobs would those be?


Inflation rates and interest rates are already very low- it wouldn't hurt right now to slide up the Philips Curve a little.