Support for the US Constitution and the Founding Fathers

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Arran
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02 Jan 2013, 1:47 pm

I'm not an American, I have never visited the United States, and I'm not particularly familiar with its culture and institutions.

The impression I have of the US is that it is a country built on a bedrock of a form of civic nationalism, much of which has its origin in the ideologies of the Founding Fathers back in the 18th century and in the US Constitution. Today these are popularly known as American values and are regarded by most Americans as sacrosanct. Any attempt to oppose them, or even question them for that matter, is regarded as extremely anti-American. This is despite the fact that some of these ideologies are no longer practical, outdated, or inferior to other ways of doing things when looked at from a rational or intuitive perspective. The consequence of this is that it is difficult to be yourself in the US and the nation is stuck in a rut over certain issues where more progressive types who want to break with the past end up being seen as heretics or enemies of the state by a high proportion of the public who slavishly follow the Constitution and ideologies of the Founding Fathers?

What do you make of this? Are Americans with AS more likely to question the so called American values and look further afield than the NT masses are?



redrobin62
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02 Jan 2013, 1:58 pm

I see and understand both "movements", if you will. The Tea Party, proponents of the 2nd Amendment, maybe even some militia groups want the country to go back to the basic way of life of the 1780's log cabin dweller. That's absolutely fine. Whereas you can't possibly take the entire country down that path with you, you are always free to visit an Amish community and join them. The East-Central Ohio Amish community is 29,000 and growing. I can't see too many aspies joining, though, considering the relatively high amount of atheists there are. As a matter of fact, some aspies even believe we're a more "progressive" or advanced race of humans, if you will. Can you imagine an aspie without his computer in the middle of Lancaster, PA tending to sheep and making furniture all day? It would drive him crazy. Aspies thrive on electricity. Shoot. Some might claim we probably invented it.



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02 Jan 2013, 2:10 pm

Arran wrote:
... What do you make of this?

America was founded on four principles:

1. Slavery (Cheap labor for the land owners).

2. Subjugation of women (Breeding stock).

3. Imperial expansion by genocide (i.e., As expressed by the hate-phrase as "The only good 'Indian' is a dead 'Indian'").

4. Denial of voting rights to anyone who was not considered a 'Man' (State laws of the time denied voting rights to women, Catholics, slaves, Jews, and Asians). Coincidentally (?) these principles are also Biblical. This gives you a whole, new meaning to the phrase "... all men are created equal ...", doesn't it?

The founding fathers were wealthy, protestant land-owners of European descent, and two-thirds to three-quarters of them owned slaves.

Arran wrote:
Are Americans with AS more likely to question the so called American values and look further afield than the NT masses are?

No more or less so than any other person who is fed up with Bible-based religion and American politics in general.


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02 Jan 2013, 2:29 pm

(Thread moved from Autism politics to PPR)


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02 Jan 2013, 2:32 pm

On the contrary! I think things like separation of church and state, the need for search warrants, the right to a speedy and fair trial, etc. are good ideas and it would be nice if they were actually put into practice consistently. Of course, you'll only ever hear about the second amendment from people who talk about the constitution, and only a certain interpretation of it even then.



ruveyn
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02 Jan 2013, 2:38 pm

Arran wrote:
I'm not an American, I have never visited the United States, and I'm not particularly familiar with its culture and institutions.

The impression I have of the US is that it is a country built on a bedrock of a form of civic nationalism, much of which has its origin in the ideologies of the Founding Fathers back in the 18th century and in the US Constitution. Today these are popularly known as American values and are regarded by most Americans as sacrosanct. Any attempt to oppose them, or even question them for that matter, is regarded as extremely anti-American. This is despite the fact that some of these ideologies are no longer practical, outdated, or inferior to other ways of doing things when looked at from a rational or intuitive perspective. The consequence of this is that it is difficult to be yourself in the US and the nation is stuck in a rut over certain issues where more progressive types who want to break with the past end up being seen as heretics or enemies of the state by a high proportion of the public who slavishly follow the Constitution and ideologies of the Founding Fathers?

What do you make of this? Are Americans with AS more likely to question the so called American values and look further afield than the NT masses are?


Probably not. Aspies are just as silly and illogical as NTs. They are just more literal minded about it.

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hblu1992
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02 Jan 2013, 2:47 pm

I disagree with with the premise. The people you are refering too are the so called "Ameericuns"(its how the countries name usually is pronounced in midwestern dialect)s. the sterotypical America that the rest of the world sees.I live on the east coast and its full of progressives those that arn't progresive are usually moderates.The" "Ameericuns" are usually found in the middle of the country in what they call "real america" which is ridiculous. They do not respresent the majority,They respresent about a quarter of the population at most. :roll:



ruveyn
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02 Jan 2013, 2:52 pm

hblu1992 wrote:
I disagree with with the premise. The people you are refering too are the so called "Ameericuns"(its how the countries name usually is pronounced in midwestern dialect)s. the sterotypical America that the rest of the world sees.I live on the east coast and its full of progressives those that arn't progresive are usually moderates.The" "Ameericuns" are usually found in the middle of the country in what they call "real america" which is ridiculous. They do not respresent the majority,They respresent about a quarter of the population at most. :roll:


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02 Jan 2013, 3:06 pm

Arran wrote:
I'm not an American, I have never visited the United States, and I'm not particularly familiar with its culture and institutions.


Would you like to ask questions about them before making assumptions?

I'd direct your attention to the following time periods: The 1783-1789(?) Articles of Confederation era, the 1840-1865 Civil War era, the 1933-1945 New Deal era, and the modern era, particularly after 2001.

Since the first swearing in of a President in 1789, we've had 44 presidents, 112 congresses, one civil war, gone from horses and frigates to 787s and Aircraft Carriers, and from 13 different paper currencies to the world's most powerful financial, media, political, and military machine.

It's somewhat difficult to generalize from that in one post.


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02 Jan 2013, 3:08 pm

I have noticed that some Americans have a "Euthyphro dilemma" on their hands when it comes to the Founding Fathers. Is something a good idea simply because the Founding Fathers said so, or did the Founding Fathers come up with some good ideas because they were wise people?



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02 Jan 2013, 3:51 pm

Arran wrote:
I'm not an American, I have never visited the United States, and I'm not particularly familiar with its culture and institutions.


So what's the point of this post? Do you have any specific points of contention with the U.S. Constitution? Do you even know anything about it? It is a fairly simple document that specifies what powers are given to the federal government. Everything else is delegated to the states and to individuals.

The biggest problem we have today is that so called "progressives" have spent the last 150 years by-passing the amendment process of the Constitution by enacting laws that give the federal government evermore power. The alphabet soup of federal agencies we have today are all unconstitutional because the Constitution was never amended to give the federal government those new powers. Of course the progressives would not ever try to have the Constitution amended because they know it is too hard to get enough states to ratify their amendments. Most people alive today don't know any different and believe that congress has the authority to give the federal government any power it wishes.

If you want to learn the intent of the U.S. Constitution from the Founders themselves, read the Federalist Papers.



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02 Jan 2013, 4:13 pm

Declension wrote:
I have noticed that some Americans have a "Euthyphro dilemma" on their hands when it comes to the Founding Fathers. Is something a good idea simply because the Founding Fathers said so, or did the Founding Fathers come up with some good ideas because they were wise people?

I tried to raise this point in one of the gun threads. Unfortunately it went straight over the American in question's head.



Arran
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02 Jan 2013, 4:14 pm

Nonperson wrote:
On the contrary! I think things like separation of church and state, the need for search warrants, the right to a speedy and fair trial, etc. are good ideas and it would be nice if they were actually put into practice consistently. Of course, you'll only ever hear about the second amendment from people who talk about the constitution, and only a certain interpretation of it even then.


Add to this list proportional representation in elections, abolishing the bizarre electoral college system of voting the president, a multi-party democracy rather than a two-party system, reforming the dysfunctional legal system such as having full trials rather than using plea bargaining, certain fiscal and economic reforms.

hblu1992 wrote:
I disagree with with the premise. The people you are refering too are the so called "Ameericuns"(its how the countries name usually is pronounced in midwestern dialect)s. the sterotypical America that the rest of the world sees.I live on the east coast and its full of progressives those that arn't progresive are usually moderates.The" "Ameericuns" are usually found in the middle of the country in what they call "real america" which is ridiculous. They do not respresent the majority,They respresent about a quarter of the population at most. :roll:


There certainly are differences in local culture throughout the United States but I'm more interested in focusing the discussion towards common themes that run throughout much of the nation rather than regional variations. I don't consider progressive to be confined to being a stauch Democrat supporter who holds socially liberal views.

Lepidoptera wrote:
So what's the point of this post?


Just curious.



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02 Jan 2013, 4:20 pm

redrobin62 wrote:
I see and understand both "movements", if you will. The Tea Party, proponents of the 2nd Amendment, maybe even some militia groups want the country to go back to the basic way of life of the 1780's log cabin dweller.


This is nonsense. Nobody wants to go back to 18th century life. And the few that think they do would give it up in a couple weeks if they were to try it.

The Tea Party is not some monolithic religious group. Anyone who thinks that has been listening to the mainstream media too much. Primarily the Tea Party wants government to act in a fiscally responsible way by living within its means (like the rest of us have to), pay down the debt and get to a balanced budget. Seriously, is anyone going to argue against that? Further, they'd like government out of our lives as much as possible. This means returning to a smaller Constitutionally based federal government. Why is this considered a bad idea?

It amazes me that today any U.S. citizen who supports the Constitution can be considered a right wing kook. If we lived in any sort of rational reality the Constitution would be the center of the U.S. political spectrum and people would be right and left from there.



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02 Jan 2013, 4:35 pm

Nonperson wrote:
Of course, you'll only ever hear about the second amendment from people who talk about the constitution, and only a certain interpretation of it even then.


There's no need for anyone's interpretation of the second amendment. There are ample writings from the time that explain the intent. About 15 years ago I researched this when there was a lot of discussion going around about the right to bear arms as an individual right or only by militias. At the time I had no opinion on it one way or the other. After reading the writings from the time it was clear the intent was an individual right. No objective person could conclude anything else. It seems today that the militia argument has largely faded.



Jacoby
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02 Jan 2013, 5:41 pm

The US constitution protects our natural rights and tells the federal government what powers it does have. It does not grant rights These rights are inalienable and endowed by our creator. They exist with or without the constitution.

It seems this concept is pretty hard to grasp for certain children that frequent this forum.