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iamnotaparakeet
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15 Jan 2013, 5:51 am

"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

As per the abridgment of freedom of speech, I consider it that private sector employees ought to have the same measure of freedom of speech as public sector employees and that laws permitting business entities to abridge the freedom of speech of their employees are in violation of the First Amendment. Although this is particular to American rights and laws, freedom of speech should be for everyone regardless of what nation they were born within or are citizens of, but it ought to at least be valid within the context of America if nowhere else. Instead, the rights of non-living business entities are treated in a manner so as to outweigh the rights of living human beings - especially those who are overworked and underpaid enough so as to have plenty of grievances to k'vetch about harmlessly, but they can't either on the job or elsewhere because once they are hired their mouths and keyboards become the property of the corporations. Sorry, but I reject that. I am an American citizen and laws in violation of the first amendment ought to be considered nullified.



ArrantPariah
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15 Jan 2013, 8:37 am

I agree with you, but you do have to be careful what you say sometimes.

Imagine that you own a small store. Are you going to want to keep an employee who says rude things about you all over town and on the internet? It is more prudent for an employee to pretend to be enthusiastic about you.

After he quits, then he might write a book about how evil you are. However, he shouldn't expect a positive reference from you, if you are contacted by another prospective employer.

Remember Herman Cain's words: "I can't think of a single thing that I would hire that woman to do."



iamnotaparakeet
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15 Jan 2013, 9:37 am

ArrantPariah wrote:
I agree with you, but you do have to be careful what you say sometimes.

Imagine that you own a small store. Are you going to want to keep an employee who says rude things about you all over town and on the internet? It is more prudent for an employee to pretend to be enthusiastic about you.

After he quits, then he might write a book about how evil you are. However, he shouldn't expect a positive reference from you, if you are contacted by another prospective employer.

Remember Herman Cain's words: "I can't think of a single thing that I would hire that woman to do."


I know caution with words is sometimes required, but I wish there were more freedom still.

I would prefer somebody who doesn't speak crap about me, but as it is I rather stand up for freedom of speech and let the dork behave like a dork than to silence them. Back when I was being mocked and ridiculed online here, I kept arguing with myself as to whether to actually turn in the jerks to the various law enforcement agencies and have the last laugh or whether I should be merciful and forgive them. I choose the latter although at the time I did want them to burn. I rather even the abusers of freedom of speech still had it - since when selectivity becomes enforced then it may never end except with a state of arbitrary censorship.

Meh, let them write. I'd probably k'vetch about them too, but also I try my best to be honest and would enumerate whatever they are good at too - hopefully the work part of their career rather than merely the annoying social crap of dealing with customers and coworkers.

Herman Cain sounds like a moron.



adb
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15 Jan 2013, 9:56 am

Congress is not your employer. Your employer is not making any laws. You're trying to twist the first amendment to mean something it doesn't. Employment has nothing to do with free speech. You do not have a right to employment. You have the right to say what you want without being imprisoned for it.



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15 Jan 2013, 10:21 am

The 1st Amendment only applies to public sector employees in a limited fashion. The court cases on the topic are not the easiest to read, but they acknowledge that a public employer does have the right to disipline for some "speech" that would be otherwise protected. The archtypial case is employees making negative comments on Facebook about members of the public.

The reasons the courts give that protection to Public employees is because of the immense power of government acting as an employer, and (occasionally) a general concept that the public deserves good employees, so elected or appointed officials arn't allowed to fire at a whim. Much of the case law grows out of the early civil service laws.


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ruveyn
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15 Jan 2013, 10:27 am

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
"Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances."

As per the abridgment of freedom of speech, I consider it that private sector employees ought to have the same measure of freedom of speech as public sector employees and that laws permitting business entities to abridge the freedom of speech of their employees are in violation of the First Amendment. Although this is particular to American rights and laws, freedom of speech should be for everyone regardless of what nation they were born within or are citizens of, but it ought to at least be valid within the context of America if nowhere else. Instead, the rights of non-living business entities are treated in a manner so as to outweigh the rights of living human beings - especially those who are overworked and underpaid enough so as to have plenty of grievances to k'vetch about harmlessly, but they can't either on the job or elsewhere because once they are hired their mouths and keyboards become the property of the corporations. Sorry, but I reject that. I am an American citizen and laws in violation of the first amendment ought to be considered nullified.


The First Amendment is a restriction of the power of Congress. It does not apply to private firms, organizations or individuals.

If I own a lecture hall privately, it is within my rights as a property owner not to rent the hall out to parties who wish to prestent points of view I energetically disagree with. Let them find another lecture hall. And if I own the only lecture hall in town, then too damn bad.

ruveyn



iamnotaparakeet
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15 Jan 2013, 10:34 am

adb wrote:
Congress is not your employer. Your employer is not making any laws. You're trying to twist the first amendment to mean something it doesn't. Employment has nothing to do with free speech. You do not have a right to employment. You have the right to say what you want without being imprisoned for it.


It would be better if employment were a right rather than treating welfare as a right, but either way freedom of speech should not be abridged - nobody should be deprived of freedom of speech and it should not be diminished. Freedom of speech with threat of punishment - in any form or degree whether it is imprisonment, termination of employment or threats of losing one's employment - is not freedom of speech but only freedom to be a puppet and speak only what those in control of them would wish to hear.



ruveyn
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15 Jan 2013, 10:35 am

iamnotaparakeet wrote:

It would be better if employment were a right rather than treating welfare as a right,


Making employment a right makes the employer a slave.

ruveyn



iamnotaparakeet
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15 Jan 2013, 10:37 am

ruveyn wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:

It would be better if employment were a right rather than treating welfare as a right,


Making employment a right makes the employer a slave.

ruveyn


Everyone at the bottom already is a slave. Although, governments have demonstrated that they are not good management whatsoever.



adb
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15 Jan 2013, 11:03 am

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
adb wrote:
Congress is not your employer. Your employer is not making any laws. You're trying to twist the first amendment to mean something it doesn't. Employment has nothing to do with free speech. You do not have a right to employment. You have the right to say what you want without being imprisoned for it.


It would be better if employment were a right rather than treating welfare as a right, but either way freedom of speech should not be abridged - nobody should be deprived of freedom of speech and it should not be diminished. Freedom of speech with threat of punishment - in any form or degree whether it is imprisonment, termination of employment or threats of losing one's employment - is not freedom of speech but only freedom to be a puppet and speak only what those in control of them would wish to hear.

What you think is better has no bearing on free speech as defined in the first amendment to the constitution. The first amendment prohibits congress from making laws that restrict freedom of speech. It doesn't say anything about employers or employment.

If you want to argue that employment is a right and freedoms should be taken away from employers, don't use the first amendment as justification.



iamnotaparakeet
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15 Jan 2013, 11:08 am

adb wrote:
iamnotaparakeet wrote:
adb wrote:
Congress is not your employer. Your employer is not making any laws. You're trying to twist the first amendment to mean something it doesn't. Employment has nothing to do with free speech. You do not have a right to employment. You have the right to say what you want without being imprisoned for it.


It would be better if employment were a right rather than treating welfare as a right, but either way freedom of speech should not be abridged - nobody should be deprived of freedom of speech and it should not be diminished. Freedom of speech with threat of punishment - in any form or degree whether it is imprisonment, termination of employment or threats of losing one's employment - is not freedom of speech but only freedom to be a puppet and speak only what those in control of them would wish to hear.

What you think is better has no bearing on free speech as defined in the first amendment to the constitution. The first amendment prohibits congress from making laws that restrict freedom of speech. It doesn't say anything about employers or employment.

If you want to argue that employment is a right and freedoms should be taken away from employers, don't use the first amendment as justification.


Laws permitting or empowering businesses to terminate employment on the basis of speech are in effect an abridgment of freedom of speech.



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15 Jan 2013, 11:09 am

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
It would be better if employment were a right rather than treating welfare as a right, but either way freedom of speech should not be abridged - nobody should be deprived of freedom of speech and it should not be diminished. Freedom of speech with threat of punishment - in any form or degree whether it is imprisonment, termination of employment or threats of losing one's employment - is not freedom of speech but only freedom to be a puppet and speak only what those in control of them would wish to hear.


Welfare is not a right either, a person has no guarenteed right to it. Those are programs from the authority of Congress/States, and there is no property right accrued there.

Under the concept referenced above, would accept that an employee, on duty at the employer's location with customers, would have the "right" to state that "My employer mistreats me"?


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iamnotaparakeet
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15 Jan 2013, 11:25 am

AgentPalpatine wrote:
Under the concept referenced above, would accept that an employee, on duty at the employer's location with customers, would have the "right" to state that "My employer mistreats me"?


Why not? Because it's not preferable to the business which isn't alive? If the rights of private sector employees regarding their freedom of speech were not abridged, they could k'vetch all they like - and if it removes business from bad businesses then all the better for those businesses whose employees voluntarily sing praises about them.



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15 Jan 2013, 11:34 am

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
Why not? Because it's not preferable to the business which isn't alive? If the rights of private sector employees regarding their freedom of speech were not abridged, they could k'vetch all they like - and if it removes business from bad businesses then all the better for those businesses whose employees voluntarily sing praises about them.


So, an employer is required to pay it's employees to bad-mouth the employer. What incentive would there be to start a business?

Also, does the right of a private person to hire employees also fall under this concept? If Joe Schmo Plumbing (which is Joe Schmo, a living breathing person) hires....Anakin Skywalker, does Anakin still have the "right" to bad mouth Joe Schmo on the job?


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15 Jan 2013, 11:41 am

Eh? Employees do have the right to say what they like. Their employer also has the right to fire them if they disagree.

It don't see how that is hard to understand...



adb
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15 Jan 2013, 11:46 am

iamnotaparakeet wrote:
adb wrote:
What you think is better has no bearing on free speech as defined in the first amendment to the constitution. The first amendment prohibits congress from making laws that restrict freedom of speech. It doesn't say anything about employers or employment.

If you want to argue that employment is a right and freedoms should be taken away from employers, don't use the first amendment as justification.


Laws permitting or empowering businesses to terminate employment on the basis of speech are in effect an abridgment of freedom of speech.

This is like saying that laws give you permission to live. The act of hiring someone gives you permission to fire them, just like if you pay for cable TV you can terminate the service at anytime. The law doesn't give you that ability. It's inherent in the nature of the business relationship.

If congress made a law that forced a business to fire someone on the basis of speech, you'd have an argument. But the first amendment doesn't say that congress shall make laws protecting freedom of speech.