Changing American Perceptions of its Military?

Page 1 of 3 [ 35 posts ]  Go to page 1, 2, 3  Next

lotuspuppy
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Jan 2008
Age: 35
Gender: Male
Posts: 995
Location: On a journey to the center of the mind

02 Feb 2013, 1:59 pm

I found Wednesday's U.S. GDP report very interesting. For those who do not know, GDP for the fourth quarter of 2012 shrank by 0.1 percent. That said, economists and serious investors did not seemed concerned about it. Consumer spending and business investing grew pretty robustly, and one drag on growth, shrinking business inventories, is likely not to be repeated now that American spending is growing.

What struck me the most was the contraction in defense spending. Defense spending declined 22.2 percent, the largest drop since 1972. This is before possible sequestration, which would slash the military budget further.

I am mostly interested in what this means for American culture, and how it views the military. In the past, defense spending was a sacred cow, and was almost never cut. Now, there are talks about trimming the defense budget, and indeed, it appears to be happening on its own. It seems as if Americans accept this far more than, say, a cut to Social Security or Medicare, which is not currently at risk of budget cuts.

Could this signal a new era in America's relationship with its military? Is the U.S. entering a stage of demilitarization? Do you think these spending draw downs mean a genuine decline of the U.S. military, or that it will simply become more efficient and adapt?



VIDEODROME
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Age: 48
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,691

02 Feb 2013, 2:16 pm

i would like to see a consolidation of the military to defend the homeland instead of keeping up all these bases and foreign occupations.

Yes I do think we can deal with international terrorists without sending an entire army to kill what is basically a foreign gang/cult.



androbot2084
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Mar 2011
Age: 63
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,447

02 Feb 2013, 2:28 pm

When I was a kid the military was advertised as a peace keeping force.



1000Knives
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 8 Jul 2011
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,036
Location: CT, USA

02 Feb 2013, 2:32 pm

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNdPPEwguDQ[/youtube]



Raptor
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 8 Mar 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,997
Location: Southeast U.S.A.

02 Feb 2013, 2:56 pm

androbot2084 wrote:
When I was a kid the military was advertised as a peace keeping force.


It IS a peacekeeping force.
Best way to keep peace is through superior firepower.


_________________
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
- Thomas Jefferson


1000Knives
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 8 Jul 2011
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,036
Location: CT, USA

02 Feb 2013, 3:02 pm

Raptor wrote:
androbot2084 wrote:
When I was a kid the military was advertised as a peace keeping force.


It IS a peacekeeping force.
Best way to keep peace is through superior firepower.


And having military bases in like 63 countries in the world.
Image

How would you feel if China put bases in America, you know, to protect the world from anti-Chinese interests?



Raptor
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 8 Mar 2007
Gender: Male
Posts: 12,997
Location: Southeast U.S.A.

02 Feb 2013, 3:19 pm

1000Knives wrote:
How would you feel if China put bases in America, you know, to protect the world from anti-Chinese interests?

I don't think we'll have to worry about that.

Having too small of a military and an isolationist national policy is what got us roped into WW1 and subsequently WW2.....


_________________
"The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time with the blood of patriots and tyrants."
- Thomas Jefferson


1000Knives
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 8 Jul 2011
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,036
Location: CT, USA

02 Feb 2013, 3:45 pm

Raptor wrote:
1000Knives wrote:
How would you feel if China put bases in America, you know, to protect the world from anti-Chinese interests?

I don't think we'll have to worry about that.

Having too small of a military and an isolationist national policy is what got us roped into WW1 and subsequently WW2.....


Huh wha?

We should never have gotten involved in WWI. All we would have needed to do was just shoot down said German subs in our waters. And Mexico invading us wasn't even a credible threat, as Germany was losing WWI anyway and couldn't send them arms and US would be the only place Mexico could buy arms to invade US. Arguably, our going into WWI caused WWII. If we just stayed the out of WWI and not artificially influenced the war for France and England, I think things would have gone much better. Hitler wouldn't have rose to power if we just let Germany win. But hey, we had to look cool to the international people.

For WWII, we could have just sold Japan the stuff it wanted and likely avoided an invasion.

When was the last time Switzerland was involved in a war (besides now with "UN Peacekeeping" it's forced to do being part of the UN)? They're extremely isolationist and neutral, so isolationist they'd shoot down American planes and German ones flying over their airspace during WWII.

Unfortunately USA wants an empire, and an empire requires alliances. We could have been a nice, free, peaceful neutral state but we wanted power instead.



VIDEODROME
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 20 Nov 2008
Age: 48
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,691

02 Feb 2013, 3:46 pm

It is certainly difficult to remain neutral if a trading partner is involved in war and their enemy torpedos our ships though. If a rising power is out of control bombing and invading neighboring nations i don't see a problem with military expansion and joining the fight. But after the fight if we keep up a big army I think we tend to look for other enemies to fight.



xenon13
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 13 Dec 2008
Age: 48
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,638

02 Feb 2013, 4:27 pm

lotuspuppy wrote:
I found Wednesday's U.S. GDP report very interesting. For those who do not know, GDP for the fourth quarter of 2012 shrank by 0.1 percent. That said, economists and serious investors did not seemed concerned about it. Consumer spending and business investing grew pretty robustly, and one drag on growth, shrinking business inventories, is likely not to be repeated now that American spending is growing.

What struck me the most was the contraction in defense spending. Defense spending declined 22.2 percent, the largest drop since 1972. This is before possible sequestration, which would slash the military budget further.

I am mostly interested in what this means for American culture, and how it views the military. In the past, defense spending was a sacred cow, and was almost never cut. Now, there are talks about trimming the defense budget, and indeed, it appears to be happening on its own. It seems as if Americans accept this far more than, say, a cut to Social Security or Medicare, which is not currently at risk of budget cuts.

Could this signal a new era in America's relationship with its military? Is the U.S. entering a stage of demilitarization? Do you think these spending draw downs mean a genuine decline of the U.S. military, or that it will simply become more efficient and adapt?


There have also been large cuts in state and local government spending during that same time which helps explain the shrinkage.



ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 88
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

02 Feb 2013, 5:32 pm

VIDEODROME wrote:
i would like to see a consolidation of the military to defend the homeland instead of keeping up all these bases and foreign occupations.

Yes I do think we can deal with international terrorists without sending an entire army to kill what is basically a foreign gang/cult.


That is a step in the right direction. Our armed forces are there to defend our borders against invading forces.

It also is a step to putting an end to the Forever War which the U.S. has been "fighting" since the Korean War. First it was the virtual or proxy war against the communists. Now it is war against the Jihadim. When will it stop? We can no longer afford it.

ruveyn



Gazelle
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 8 Mar 2012
Gender: Female
Posts: 2,333
Location: Tropical island

02 Feb 2013, 5:50 pm

1000Knives wrote:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=nNdPPEwguDQ[/youtube]


Thanks for posting this 1000Knives it is pretty hilarious 8)


_________________
"Our deepest fear is not that we are inadequate, but that we are powerful beyond measure."


techstepgenr8tion
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 Feb 2005
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 24,489
Location: 28th Path of Tzaddi

02 Feb 2013, 6:09 pm

We might have to just change how we use our military or how we think of them in terms of deployment.

My thought, in a world where warfare keeps getting less conventional every year, why not just invest more in special forces and intelligence? Have fewer but better trained troops with better tech?

I don't think insanely drastic cuts are wise but if we're going to be making cuts there might be nothing wrong at all with smarter strategy rather than blunt force and $$.



psychohist
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Feb 2010
Age: 64
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,623
Location: Somerville, MA, USA

02 Feb 2013, 6:36 pm

lotuspuppy wrote:
In the past, defense spending was a sacred cow, and was almost never cut.

If so, how did it manage to shrink from 10% of GDP in 1960 to 5% now, when th federal government as a whole was growing?



psychohist
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Feb 2010
Age: 64
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,623
Location: Somerville, MA, USA

02 Feb 2013, 6:38 pm

1000Knives wrote:
How would you feel if China put bases in America, you know, to protect the world from anti-Chinese interests?

I notice your map shows that we don't have any bases in China.

Most of the bases are in countries that invited us in. That doesn't mean they're a good idea, but they aren't nearly as much of a political issue as, say, our constant drone strikes in supposedly neutral nations.



Chevand
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 20 Jul 2008
Age: 38
Gender: Male
Posts: 580
Location: Vancouver, BC

02 Feb 2013, 6:38 pm

ruveyn wrote:
VIDEODROME wrote:
i would like to see a consolidation of the military to defend the homeland instead of keeping up all these bases and foreign occupations.

Yes I do think we can deal with international terrorists without sending an entire army to kill what is basically a foreign gang/cult.


That is a step in the right direction. Our armed forces are there to defend our borders against invading forces.

It also is a step to putting an end to the Forever War which the U.S. has been "fighting" since the Korean War. First it was the virtual or proxy war against the communists. Now it is war against the Jihadim. When will it stop? We can no longer afford it.

ruveyn


For once, ruveyn, I'm in complete agreement with you.

The good news is, I think public sentiment is finally swaying in that direction. Eight years of disastrous neo-conservative "shock and awe" foreign policy under Bush, capped off by Obama's campaign of not-so-secret drone strikes against Pakistan, have drastically undermined the agenda of the stalwart hawkish within the ranks of our policymakers. With bin Laden no longer among the living and an ongoing recession, we've got more pressing priorities than Afghanistan anyway. The bad news is, public sentiment and common sense only go so far in Washington. So long as lobbyist money speaks louder than the voice of the people, I'm not optimistic about the prospects of the US abandoning its "global policeman" attitude anytime soon. If we're ever going to change direction, we're going to have to get serious about systematic restructuring of how business is conducted at the level of our civilian leadership.


_________________
Mediocrity is a petty vice; aspiring to it is a grievous sin.