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Ulster's Unionists defeat gay marriage bill in NI

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Tequila
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01 May 2013, 5:27 am

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Unionists defeat Northern Irish gay marriage bill
  • Scene may now be set for gay couple to take case to European Court of Human Rights, says Amnesty International
Unionist politicians have defeated a Sinn Féin bid to create marriage equality for gay couples in Northern Ireland. The votes of the Democratic Unionist party and Ulster Unionist party in the Stormont Assembly helped defeat a Sinn Féin motion backed by the SDLP, Alliance and the Green party.

But their defeat of the proposed bill sets the scene for a legal challenge in both the British and European courts against the continued ban on gay marriage in part of the UK.

Amnesty International today repeated a warning first made in the Guardian last month that the prospect of a a gay couple taking a legal case to the European Court of Human Rights is now a distinct possibility.



thomas81
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01 May 2013, 11:15 am

An embarressing time for Northern Ireland.


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Fnord
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01 May 2013, 11:27 am

thomas81 wrote:
An embarressing time for Northern Ireland.

More embarrassing than the Troubles?



thomas81
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01 May 2013, 11:32 am

Fnord wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
An embarressing time for Northern Ireland.

More embarrassing than the Troubles?


yes spelling hitler, more embarrassing than the troubles. :roll: The troubles were completely unrelated to the root causes of homophobia in Northern Ireland and largely provoked by London policy.

Bad day at the office, so cut me some slack.

This comes at a time when we are already under scrutiny because of womens abortion access or lack of.


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abacacus
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01 May 2013, 4:39 pm

It's profoundly sad that that any place in the world, let alone the developed world, can still be that backwards.


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01 May 2013, 5:04 pm

Remember that civil partnerships are legal in Northern Ireand, and that the province was the first part of the UK to have ceremonies.

The NI only Unionist parties are all socially conservative to a greater or lesser extent. I have unionist sympathies and I would be pissed off with the DUP.



0_equals_true
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01 May 2013, 6:13 pm

Every time this happens I say get rid of legal marriage.

I believe contract law is robust enough we don't need marriage and divorce law.



thomas81
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01 May 2013, 6:58 pm

0_equals_true wrote:
Every time this happens I say get rid of legal marriage.

I believe contract law is robust enough we don't need marriage and divorce law.


The problem is if you don't have marriage what do you use as a legal yardstick for where things like child custody rights begin and end. Or the legal division of assets in times of relationship breakdowns for example.


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01 May 2013, 7:04 pm

thomas81 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
An embarressing time for Northern Ireland.
More embarrassing than the Troubles?
yes spelling hitler, more embarrassing than the troubles. The troubles were completely unrelated to the root causes of homophobia in Northern Ireland and largely provoked by London policy. Bad day at the office, so cut me some slack. This comes at a time when we are already under scrutiny because of womens abortion access or lack of.

More embarrassing than the Titanic?



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01 May 2013, 7:06 pm

Fnord wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
An embarressing time for Northern Ireland.
More embarrassing than the Troubles?
yes spelling hitler, more embarrassing than the troubles. The troubles were completely unrelated to the root causes of homophobia in Northern Ireland and largely provoked by London policy. Bad day at the office, so cut me some slack. This comes at a time when we are already under scrutiny because of womens abortion access or lack of.

More embarrassing than the Titanic?


Built by Irish hands.

Sunk by English navigators.


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01 May 2013, 7:32 pm

thomas81 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
An embarressing time for Northern Ireland.
More embarrassing than the Troubles?
yes spelling hitler, more embarrassing than the troubles. The troubles were completely unrelated to the root causes of homophobia in Northern Ireland and largely provoked by London policy. Bad day at the office, so cut me some slack. This comes at a time when we are already under scrutiny because of womens abortion access or lack of.

More embarrassing than the Titanic?
Built by Irish hands.

With cheap, brittle, sulfur-laden hull plating.

thomas81 wrote:
Sunk by English navigators.

Before the age of radar, loran, omega, and GPS.

More embarrassing than the "City of Culture"?

More embarrassing than the Orange Order?

More embarrassing than the drug-dealing Ulster Volunteer Force?

It seems that Ulster has a lot more things to be embarrassed about than just Homophobia.



thomas81
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01 May 2013, 7:52 pm

Fnord wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
Fnord wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
An embarressing time for Northern Ireland.
More embarrassing than the Troubles?
yes spelling hitler, more embarrassing than the troubles. The troubles were completely unrelated to the root causes of homophobia in Northern Ireland and largely provoked by London policy. Bad day at the office, so cut me some slack. This comes at a time when we are already under scrutiny because of womens abortion access or lack of.

More embarrassing than the Titanic?
Built by Irish hands.

With cheap, brittle, sulfur-laden hull plating.

Who do you think was supplying the materials? They almost certainly didnt come from belfast.

Perhaps if White Star Line werent concerned with corner cutting it would have been built with greater reliability. In addition to the fact that a constructing a ship of that size was at the time, uncharted territory. Expensive steel plates were not available, especially not in Ireland.

Fnord wrote:
Before the age of radar, loran, omega, and GPS.

They arrogantly took the ship on a more northernly route than necessary to make a new record and to save time.

The risk of hitting an iceberg should have been more than an afterthought.
Fnord wrote:
[
More embarrassing than the "City of Culture"?

More embarrassing than the Orange Order?

More embarrassing than the drug-dealing Ulster Volunteer Force?

It seems that Ulster has a lot more things to be embarrassed about than just Homophobia.


My original point stands.


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02 May 2013, 11:16 am

0_equals_true wrote:
Every time this happens I say get rid of legal marriage.

I believe contract law is robust enough we don't need marriage and divorce law.


Contract only binds the parties, not government, and not third parties.

A contract doesn't create a presumption of tax exempt inheritance. A contract doesn't compel doctors to take instructions. A contract doesn't compel an insurer to extend benefits. A contract doesn't create survivor rights in pensions.

How many more examples would you like me to cite?


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02 May 2013, 11:18 am

visagrunt wrote:
0_equals_true wrote:
Every time this happens I say get rid of legal marriage.

I believe contract law is robust enough we don't need marriage and divorce law.


Contract only binds the parties, not government, and not third parties.

A contract doesn't create a presumption of tax exempt inheritance. A contract doesn't compel doctors to take instructions. A contract doesn't compel an insurer to extend benefits. A contract doesn't create survivor rights in pensions.

How many more examples would you like me to cite?


A contract also creates ambiguity in regards to child custody rights and posession division in the case of a relationship break down.

Marriage protects the rights of both the married and the unmarried.


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0_equals_true
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02 May 2013, 6:38 pm

thomas81 wrote:
0_equals_true wrote:
Every time this happens I say get rid of legal marriage.

I believe contract law is robust enough we don't need marriage and divorce law.


The problem is if you don't have marriage what do you use as a legal yardstick for where things like child custody rights begin and end. Or the legal division of assets in times of relationship breakdowns for example.


Marriage doesn't help child custody, it complicates it.

I actually disagree with the automatic division of assets, where a partner is concerned, this is can be handled by contract law. Any parent has a financial responsibility to raise their kids. Inheritance law can handle legacy.

Your responsibilities still stand. In any relationship, commitment is commitment, responsibility is responsibility. Marriage is for culture, religions, and doesn't need to be defined in the law.

I applaud my cousin who has been happily not married with partner and kids for years. He is a well known cardiologist in Spain.



0_equals_true
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02 May 2013, 6:45 pm

visagrunt wrote:
0_equals_true wrote:
Every time this happens I say get rid of legal marriage.

I believe contract law is robust enough we don't need marriage and divorce law.


Contract only binds the parties, not government, and not third parties.

A contract doesn't create a presumption of tax exempt inheritance. A contract doesn't compel doctors to take instructions. A contract doesn't compel an insurer to extend benefits. A contract doesn't create survivor rights in pensions.

How many more examples would you like me to cite?

Cite as many as you like, you are talking to someone who doesn't actually believe that all these rights should be specific to marriage.

See you are saying contract law doesn't cover all these things, sure, but I see many of those things as separate concerns, it is not there isn't the need to have additional legal principles that cover these aspects of peoples lives, just it doesn't have to be conflated into one institution.

As far as two people forming a partnership agreement that can be done with a contract.



Last edited by 0_equals_true on 02 May 2013, 6:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.