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Is US a much more 'socialist' place than Europe?

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Greb
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30 Apr 2013, 6:01 am

Europe is tradiotionally considered a more lefty/socialist area in comparison with US. This is a kind of commonly accepted cliche.

But reading some comments here I'm not that sure. Right now, for example, in this thread: http://www.wrongplanet.net/postt229876.html, I have seen this message:

BuyerBeware wrote:
Have you been watching the news, honey??

DO NOT GET TESTED.

I only skimmed your post, but you sound pretty mildly affected. There really isn't much help out there for you. A self-diagnosis will give you as much validation as a professional one.

ESPECIALLY as a mother, before you go and get yourself a diagnosis, PLEASE read some of the horror stories here. Consider the effect of stigma and marginalization on your family. Consider the possibility of not being able to find/hold work if they succeed in rolling your HIPPA rights back. Consider not being able to advocate for your children because no one will take you seriously because you are "ret*d" too.

Please, for your kids' sake, be very very careful.


Having such a fear of being categorized sounds strange to me. In my country, a European one, that would be considered absolutely insane. Gouvernement is supposed to provide some services that could be considered 'lefties' as universal sanity or education or similars (though the crisis is changing that). But as long as you pay your taxes and you don't break any law (like robbing a shop or driving without license) nobody really cares about you. The gouvernement provides those services. If you want them, that's OK, if you don't, well, too bad for you because you must pay your taxes anyway.

That's weird, but from a European point of view, some US comments here sound like Orwell's 1984.


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xenon13
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30 Apr 2013, 6:41 am

It's the American Right that's responsible for that. It's they who say "We can't let the State get involved too much in our lives because if it does it will use leverage to micromanage our lives" but then complain when the Left does not use the state leverage to that end and vow to do so when they take power in the name of the Taxpayer, to save money. So they suggest that people who aren't physically perfect be denied health care to save money, for example.



minervx
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30 Apr 2013, 6:47 am

the word socialism is never clearly defined. and since it's a buzz word, no one will ever define it as it's something they wouldn't want to attach themselves to.



Greb
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30 Apr 2013, 6:53 am

xenon13 wrote:
It's the American Right that's responsible for that. It's they who say "We can't let the State get involved too much in our lives because if it does it will use leverage to micromanage our lives" but then complain when the Left does not use the state leverage to that end and vow to do so when they take power in the name of the Taxpayer, to save money. So they suggest that people who aren't physically perfect be denied health care to save money, for example.


But autimsm, except that annoying intestinal stuff, has not physical problems involved.

minervx wrote:
the word socialism is never clearly defined. and since it's a buzz word, no one will ever define it as it's something they wouldn't want to attach themselves to.


I'm using the common US meaning for 'socialism'.


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ModusPonens
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30 Apr 2013, 7:34 am

Have you ever seen fox news? It's like a right wing mental institution! I don't know of any country in Europe that has 50% of voters who vote for the (american) republican area.



AgentPalpatine
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30 Apr 2013, 7:45 am

Greb wrote:
Having such a fear of being categorized sounds strange to me. In my country, a European one, that would be considered absolutely insane. Gouvernement is supposed to provide some services that could be considered 'lefties' as universal sanity or education or similars (though the crisis is changing that). But as long as you pay your taxes and you don't break any law (like robbing a shop or driving without license) nobody really cares about you. The gouvernement provides those services. If you want them, that's OK, if you don't, well, too bad for you because you must pay your taxes anyway.

That's weird, but from a European point of view, some US comments here sound like Orwell's 1984.


Greb, I think I understand what you're trying to say in this thread, but the question that you're asking won't make sense to many "American" English speakers. Slight differences in language add up on cultural issues.

The poster that you quoted has a fairly well known view of society's treatment of ASDs, and the post you referenced above does'nt surprise me. The referenced poster's views have very little to do with the conservative/liberal difference in US politics, and more to do with negative commentary and treatment of those with ASDs.


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ruveyn
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30 Apr 2013, 10:06 am

The U.S. is socialist in practice but avoids socialist rhetoric like poison.

The U.S. has been treading down the paths of Liberal or Progressive Fascism since the time of Teddy Roosevelt.

See "Liberal Fascism" by Jonah Goldberg

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ArrantPariah
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30 Apr 2013, 10:31 am

ruveyn wrote:
The U.S. has been treading down the paths of Liberal or Progressive Fascism since the time of Teddy Roosevelt.

ruveyn


It was either that, or eat poisoned meat.



lotuspuppy
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30 Apr 2013, 10:41 am

This is not really socialism as I understand it to mean in an economic sense. Rather, this is part of a cultural difference that exists in different parts of the U.S. In the Northeast and West Coast (and most major cities in between), cultural differences are a non-issue. In other communities, they are. I expect the communities least tolerant of differences are the ones with the most tightly woven social bonds, like those in the rural South or Midwest. Then again, I do not know.

What I do know is that several different subcultures exist depending on where you go, with no one culture dominating over the others. Outsiders are often baffled by certain policies in Washington, which appear not to be grounded in reality (or these days, no policies at all). I believe the reason for Washington's actions stem from cultural differences within the U.S. There are different political beliefs, religions, value systems, economic conditions, and now even languages that coexist in our system.



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30 Apr 2013, 12:57 pm

ruveyn wrote:
The U.S. is socialist in practice but avoids socialist rhetoric like poison.

The U.S. has been treading down the paths of Liberal or Progressive Fascism since the time of Teddy Roosevelt.

See "Liberal Fascism" by Jonah Goldberg

ruveyn


And I take flack for "mischaracterizing" paleo-conservative free-marketists as wanting to turn the clock back to some 19th century Guilded Age dystopia. It's also hilarious that you seem to think you have not benefited one bit from the labor movements of the 20th century. Do you come from an ultra-privileged family or something? Do you have no common "proles" in your family?



marshall
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30 Apr 2013, 1:01 pm

The answer is Americans are paranoid nutters who fear their own shadow and distrust everyone. We elect idiot throwbacks, capitalist cronies, and extremists and then complain that nothing gets done and that we have lost representation in government. :roll:



Jacoby
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30 Apr 2013, 2:32 pm

America is as "socialist" or more than many European countries.



Greb
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30 Apr 2013, 3:03 pm

lotuspuppy wrote:
This is not really socialism as I understand it to mean in an economic sense. Rather, this is part of a cultural difference that exists in different parts of the U.S. In the Northeast and West Coast (and most major cities in between), cultural differences are a non-issue. In other communities, they are. I expect the communities least tolerant of differences are the ones with the most tightly woven social bonds, like those in the rural South or Midwest. Then again, I do not know.

What I do know is that several different subcultures exist depending on where you go, with no one culture dominating over the others. Outsiders are often baffled by certain policies in Washington, which appear not to be grounded in reality (or these days, no policies at all). I believe the reason for Washington's actions stem from cultural differences within the U.S. There are different political beliefs, religions, value systems, economic conditions, and now even languages that coexist in our system.


That's why I referred to the US meaning of socialism. In US this word has more social connotations, though in Europe is more about the economic system. Anyway, how the US governement can interfere with life people looks quite illogical, from my point of view. People fearing being categorized as mentally ill just for being high functioning autist is something that goes much farther than any governement should go.

And besides that, this same governement is not able to prevent some kids to be taught creationism as it was science. Crazy.


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Mike1
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30 Apr 2013, 3:06 pm

lotuspuppy wrote:
This is not really socialism as I understand it to mean in an economic sense. Rather, this is part of a cultural difference that exists in different parts of the U.S. In the Northeast and West Coast (and most major cities in between), cultural differences are a non-issue. In other communities, they are. I expect the communities least tolerant of differences are the ones with the most tightly woven social bonds, like those in the rural South or Midwest. Then again, I do not know.

What I do know is that several different subcultures exist depending on where you go, with no one culture dominating over the others. Outsiders are often baffled by certain policies in Washington, which appear not to be grounded in reality (or these days, no policies at all). I believe the reason for Washington's actions stem from cultural differences within the U.S. There are different political beliefs, religions, value systems, economic conditions, and now even languages that coexist in our system.

That's why I've been wanting New England to secede from the union. The politicians here are more likely to protect my rights than the feds. New England would be much better off if it wasn't under the control of D.C. New England is great, but the U.S. as a whole sucks.



Last edited by Mike1 on 30 Apr 2013, 3:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

The_Walrus
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30 Apr 2013, 3:07 pm

It is probably best not to judge the world by the horror stories of people on the internet.



MXH
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30 Apr 2013, 5:02 pm

The problem here is our socialism applies only to a sector of people. I don't mind gov healthcare, if we all get the healthcare. Now if we all have to pay for someone healthcare and then not get the gov one I was also pitching in for then there's a problem. EU countries are just as socialist, but they do it for everyone.