Hello my question is that when many Western People say Musli

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Hello my question is that when many Western People say Muslims/Islam are/is Sexist against Women because many Muslim Women wear a Burqa/Veil/Hijab but I have met Muslims who claim the Western World oppresses Women because the West has Prostitution Pornography and Strip Clubs/Bars how do I respond to this claim ? In America we do have a Constitution so we could passlaws to outlaw Pornography if the people wanted them and Congress voted on this the Soviet Union was an Secular Atheist State and they banned/outlawed Pornography ? My final question is for a Woman to dress Modest does she need to wear a Burqa ?

Pornography was illegal in the USSR.

http://www.soviet-empire.com/ussr/viewtopic.php?t=41694

Porn and prostitution are also illegal in China. There is an attitude in many communist societies (Not countries, necessarily. See the EZLN) that if all are equal, selling your body subordinates you to the client. It's also a form of free enterprise, which tends to be frowned upon.

As far as having prostitution... Go anywhere. Find a poor/seedy area, there will be prostitutes. You can find escorts and courtesans in New York, Moscow, Beijing, and Tehran, and it's illegal in all of those. Trying to ban it is like trying to ban the rain. As long as there is poverty and women, there will be prostitution. If you examine the laws against porn and prostitution, look to the fact that especially in foreign nations, Johns walk while the hooker gets locked up. That is sexist.

We don't merely call Conservative Muslims sexists because of the Burqa and Hijab. We call them that because a clear double standard exists for women. For example, while divorce is permitted in the Quran (Either party can annul the marriage, in situations of abuse), the man has a much easier time of it than the woman. If a man commits adultery, it's a slap on the wrist. If a woman does it, or is raped, it's her head, and a man can brutalize his wife and daughters, up to and including murder, if he so much as suspects (even with out probable cause) that they have done anything to dishonor him. Third, women can not be seen in public, although I've never been quite sure whether or not it's more sexist against men, since they apparently are completely incapable of controlling their urges, should they catch a glimpse of hair.

And yes, they do consider Burqa to be "modest" dress, and even a Victorian-style gown is immodest.

Does the west tolerate 'honor killings' or stone rape victims? I do not think they want to play this game of comparison, those are just two of the most egregious examples.

Do Western religious institutions issue death sentences against those who speak out against those religions? Do they then convince their women that wearing an explosive device and then detonating it in a crowded marketplace will bring honor to their families?

Do Western religious leaders sentence to death any woman caught alone in the same room as a man who is not her father, uncle, brother, cousin, or son? Are people in the West imprisoned, beaten, or executed for breaking laws against adultery, blasphemy, idolatry, or conversion out of the dominant religion?

Simple answer: If the muslim woman does not want to wear the headgear what happens to her? Stone to the face is a likely scenario. Its not her choice now isn't it?

In contrast, porn, strip clubs, bars, etc are 100% the choice of the woman working in them to be there (aside from illegal activity of course..aka women forced into it..which happens around the world even in muslim countries).

So you make up your mind which of the two is being oppressed.



It was banned but it was there. Just like prostitution was. The higher ups in the communist party made excessive use of both.


That would be a question for someone who lives in such a culture. From my understanding where women wear it in public its mandatory where its an option then it is considered conservative/modest.

Just as an add-on to this: The slap in the wrist/stone her issue is not rooted in the religion. Its a leftoever cultural practice from far before the days of islam.

The veil is an ancient babylonian/sumerian practice. Married women wore it to not be pursued by men. The logic was if a veiled woman (aka easy to tell she's married) had an affair it was all her fault and not the man's. Silly to us but that is where it comes from. Women in areas where muslims practice the use of the veil/burqa only start wearing it upon menarche (usually) or after they are socially considered 'adults'.

Stoning/hurting/killing women for affronts to honor comes from the Aryan culture that invaded much of india and middle east. The punishment for dishonoring one's kin/tribe was death by stoning or by setting them on fire alive. Sound familiar? You've heard both happen in India and the middle east. There's there reason.

In any case, all these things we consider abhorring were solidly in place and widespread in the middle east, india and parts of europe long before islam and christianity existed.

Absolutely, it's not rooted solely in Islam. I do think however, that conservative Islam (Along with some conservative forms of Christianity and Hinduism) are the primary vehicles for propagating this sort of thought in the modern world. Funnily enough, religious and cultural traditions have blurred in many parts of the world so that it's difficult to tell what came from where.

This:

And this:

Can I mention the many organised and Muslim paedophile rape gang cases - often with many, many people involved - in the UK?

Just the other day, a lot of men went to prison for their heinous crimes in Oxford.

A genuinely enlightened liberal Muslim by the name of Dr. Taj Hargey admits that the Muslim community - and the supremacist, sexist, misogynistic hatred and bigotry that repressed young men are taught in mosques up and down the land - is the root cause of this problem:

Let me think of these sex gang cases:

Oxford; Oldham; Keighley; Derby; Burnley; Telford; Rochdale; Shropshire; Ipswich; Rotherham...

The police, social services and other people in power sat on these cases for many years, covering up for these criminals, refusing to take statements or to act on charges, drugging, gang rapes with many male perpetrators, savage beatings, brandings, passing them around for any number of paying men to rape and God knows what else.

The only people really mentioning what was going on were some brave councillors and MPs, the parents of those involved, some public campaigners and the EDL and BNP. The BNP was probably the loudest about it, but the entire story was simply buried and ignored because they feared the cries of 'racism' and 'Islamophobia' emanating from the Muslim community.

All the perpetrators in these sex gangs are Muslim men, mostly (but not exclusively) of Pakistani origin. Some of them were quite well-off, too. They targeted non-Muslims - mainly white teenage and pre-teenage girls, but also black and non-Muslim South Asian girls.

Last edited by Tequila on 16 May 2013, 11:17 am, edited 2 times in total.

I'm still waiting to hear of massive gangs of Christians abducting, drugging, abusing, raping, beating and branding scores of Muslim barely-teenage girls.

I would say that women are oppressed there in far worse ways than what they wear. They can't go out without a male supervising them, they can't choose who they marry, if they are raped, they are expected to commit suicide or they shame their family, during menstruation, they are considered unclean spiritually... I could go on.

I'm really curious how this conversation is going to continue, the OP sounds to me like "how do you respond to a totally irrational and unfounded theory in a logical and structured way?"
(no trolling, just thinking! )

What is unfounded about it?

Oh, well, I simply find it illogic and incoherent to claim a culture is protecting women when such women are actually beaten up and treated like objects to the point that to take a plane and go abroad they need a man to sign their passport...
I generally view theories merely based on religions (whatever religion, although some are more logic and coherent then Others) as somewhat a waste of time to answer to...

(sorry, needed to edit -.-" )

Dantac and I were discussing the historical roots of their sexist practices, which are far older than Islam, not the nonsense you Brits allow to occur on your doorstep. Interestingly enough, despite a large and thriving Muslim population, we don't have Muslim child sex rings in the US. Interesting, isn't it?

As far as Christians... well, there's the Church, constantly engaged in an apparently never ending case of child abuse cases, including in the British Isles. Remember the Magdalene laundries? Or the Irish sex scandal?

Ehm... not saying it's false, it's true, still it's also true child abuse in the Church is not religion based... there's a sentence in the gospel stating that any harm to a child or a child's innocence is doomed with hell... the last sentence is going a little out of the path, although an interesting theme to talk about, it's not on topic IMHO...