Free will or determinism?

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Title basically says it all.

I am compelled to say Yes.

Definately.

because you want to or because you had to?

Which definition of free will?

Get your tongues out of your bloody cheeks, you smart a**es

In that case I'll say yes to free will because that was the answer chosen for me at the big bang.

Absolutely!



Okay, this is an explanation of the Christian Predestination/Free Will conundrum using metaphors:

Imagine that you are an actor, and that you've been handed a script. The writer/director/producer wants you to follow the script, but you are of the opinion that you could do better. Sometimes you actually follow the script, but only when it suits you. Sometimes you improvise your lines, your stage movements, and the way you use the props and set pieces.

When the show is over, the writer/director/producer either invites you to join the production team on a permanent basis, or completely blacklists you from The Business, and you wander the wilderness forever.

If you're in good with the son of the writer/producer/director, the son will say, "Hey, wait a minute, Dad! It's all my fault!" and the writer/producer/director is honor-bound to put you on his staff.

Makes sense to me!

I'll have to remember that one.

On the debate on which is correct, free will or predestination, one preacher explains it like this. Predestination through foreknowledge. This means everyone has "free will" but God, not limited by time, sees the end from the beginning and knows what choices we will make before we make them.

God doesn't force us into a pre-determined outcome, we make the choices as they come along and God just knows what they will be before we get to make them.

It's like watching a blind hairpin turn from a hilltop. You see two cars coming from opposite directions, and one is in the wrong lane. You know they will crash, you really have no means to stop it from happening, but that you can tell it will happen doesn't mean you forced it to happen. You are simply in a position to see the outcome before the individuals make the choices that make that outcome happen.

To quote the late Carl Sagan:

"Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence."

The way I see it, the concept of free will - a subset of reality existing outside the laws of physics (or in philosophical terms: Dualism) - is an *extremely* extraordinary claim about reality.

Or, for a more poetic stance, please allow me to quote The Great Infidel:

"What peculiar privilege has this little agitation of the brain which we call thought, that we must thus make it the model of the whole universe? Our partiality in our own favour does indeed present it on all occasions; but sound philosophy ought carefully to guard against so natural an illusion."

I have yet to encounter extraordinary evidence for the existence of free will (has there been any at all?), so I see no reason why I should hold such a claim in greater esteem than claims of unicorns, faster-than-light travel, free energy devices or good Justin Bieber songs (in decreasing order of credibility).

Last edited by GGPViper on 12 Jul 2013, 2:55 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Kind of like Techstepgenr8tion, I'm not sure what is meant by "Free Will"

I mean we have the ability to make choices within the circumstances we live in. Our environment and history does affect and shape us, but we can also in turn make choices that affect our environment and the people around us. There is some give and take to it.

I do think we have Free Will to a degree, but it's also fair to say we are shaped and influenced by the world as well as by our own biology. For example, we must all eventually sleep. You don't have the Free Choice in a matter like that.

I think most people have the ability to take charge of their lives and point themselves in the direction they want to go. But I reckon the majority of these people go in directions they think others want them to and convince themselves that its what they want too. Those rare people who seem to "break the mold" and do outstanding things are usually driven by some childhood issue that they are trying to deal with or escape from.

So I think free will is largely determined by things we are not aware of or have no ability to control.

I'm going with "neither".

The biggest challenge with this question is that no one really knows how much of them is fully their own and has no ultimate control from the external world inward unless they give it - some would argue that such a kernel does not exist.

The one thing I am sure of - pursuit of efficiency will lead you on a very predictable path and you'll be governed by your desires, the outer-limts of what your mind and body can give you, and both of those will be edified, rejected, and modified in how they reflect on your effectiveness or impotency in dealing with the outer world. When you stop playing the game and being a causal slave to external circumstances (when I say that I mean societal values, tautologies, and demanded self-judgments) and pursuing the best life you can on your own terms - I think that's where you become aware of choices that you wouldn't have considered before, just like you can find a universe of enjoyment in things that you wouldn't have thought twice about when your mind was on the utility wagon. Similarly as suffering is a choice and knowing that attitude can transcend, much like heaven within can abate hell without, helps loosen the shackles.

For several years I was a zealot to the notion that determinism is infinitely locked down and hence the most minute movements and even the most mundane choices - all - were absolute automation and that free will was an illusion purely created by having a past, present, and unknown future. Finding out more about QM vs. Newtonian physics, finding out then more about how time breaks down in spiritual realms, the possibilities of four and even seven energy bodies in man, while I'd still think that free will to whatever extent it could exist is a minority player it would have to ultimately come in from knowledge we have that transcends the physical and which aren't slaves to input, processing, output, memory, and apparatus the way the physical mind is.

I'd side with determinism. However the brain works, I don't think it works in the way that makes our traditional concepts of free will work very well. Maybe we can talk about some semi-fictive reconstructed view of free will as existing, but it would have to be compatible with determinism, and it probably wouldn't be as fulfilling as our original conceptions were perceived as by us.

I don't see why not.