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pawelk1986
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14 Jun 2013, 6:04 am

Please, maintain the solemnity as the topic is serious.

Warn that as a Catholic, I might be a little biased.


I recently read an article about abortion, a case which occurred in Australia. The article is old, but the problem is still actual.
http://www.lifesitenews.com/news/horror ... rts-healt/
The woman had a twin boy pregnancy, it turned out that one of the fetuses had a severe heart defect, the patient's doctor recommended abortion fetus, but it turned out that accidentally remove healthy fetus.
A woman then decided to remove the second fetus.
Can it sounds cruel, but I think it was divine intervention, because the good Lord always protect the weaker ones.

I wonder why this woman chose to abort their second child, made ​​a mistake, but you made ​​the same mistake twice in a row, I can not understand this.



Kraichgauer
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14 Jun 2013, 1:36 pm

In my heart, I'm pro-life, but my head tells me that sometimes, abortion is a necessary procedure. On top of that, the notion that abortion would simply disappear if made illegal is incredibly naive. Abortion was a thriving underground industry when illegal, and was hardly safe for the women undergoing the procedure. There needs to be alternatives offered to women with unwanted pregnancies, or are too poor to provide a life for that child - but that will entail tax money for social programs, and the willingness for people to be charitable and not judgmental. I like Bill Clinton's take on the matter - keep abortion safe, legal, and rare.

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Kurgan
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14 Jun 2013, 1:41 pm

Neither pro-choice, nor pro-life. There are a-holes in the pro-choice guild who think abortion at 26 weeks can be justified (they moved the goalposts to 'certain viability' after it was made clear that a fetus was conscious at 16 weeks)—and there are nutjobs in the pro-life guild who think an embryo at 10 days is a fully sentient human being.

If abortion was banned in all circumstances, it would be moved underground instead, where it would be an extremely risky procedure run by a crime syndicate.



Last edited by Kurgan on 14 Jun 2013, 3:08 pm, edited 3 times in total.

Fnord
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14 Jun 2013, 1:41 pm

I think that since I will never need one, it is not up to me to decide the legality of abortion.

Otherwise, the decision should be up to the woman and her physician.



Kraichgauer
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14 Jun 2013, 2:00 pm

As I said, in my heart I'm pro-life, but I hold much of the pro-life movement in contempt. They've proven themselves to be bigoted, heartless clods who could care less about the woman in question or the overwhelming choice she has to make, and are only concerned about the child before birth and after death, but not in between. On top of that, they've demonstrated time after time that they are capable of extreme violence, and disregard the lives, rights, and very personhood of the abortion clinic staffers who are often their victims.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



ruveyn
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14 Jun 2013, 2:18 pm

Kraichgauer wrote:
As I said, in my heart I'm pro-life, but I hold much of the pro-life movement in contempt. They've proven themselves to be bigoted, heartless clods who could care less about the woman in question or the overwhelming choice she has to make, and are only concerned about the child before birth and after death, but not in between. On top of that, they've demonstrated time after time that they are capable of extreme violence, and disregard the lives, rights, and very personhood of the abortion clinic staffers who are often their victims.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


The violence of the anti-abortion crazies is miniscule compared to the violence of the Jihadis. I have yet to see a crew of anti-abortionists hijack a commercial flight and crash it into an abortion clinic.

You get an anti-abortion crazy killing an abortionist or torching an abortion clinic, maybe one every five years or so. On the other hand Muslim suicide bombers or I.E.D. planters do their Thing several times a week. Fortunately it is mostly Muslims that Muslims kill so I consider their actions overall favorable to the human race.

ruveyn



The_Walrus
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14 Jun 2013, 2:22 pm

Kurgan wrote:
Neither pro-choice, nor pro-life. There are a-holes in the pro-life guild who think abortion at 26 weeks can be justified (they moved the goalposts to 'certain viability' after it was made clear that a fetus was conscious at 16 weeks)—and there are nutjobs in the pro-choice guild who think an embryo at 10 days is a fully sentient human being.

Erm, have you got those camps the wrong way around, or are there pro-lifers who think abortion can be justified at 26 weeks?

I think that as a foetus develops, the harder it becomes for a woman to abort it. Therefore, if a woman is determined to abort her foetus, she should be allowed to, because if she's looked at the options and decided abortion is the best one, then it probably is.



YourMajesty
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14 Jun 2013, 2:58 pm

I know that a lot of people are against it, but I disagree with them. Few women will just abort it and not care and those who do shouldn't have a child in the first place. If someone decides she cannot have the baby she probably has a reason or is wise enough to know she shouldn't raise a child at this point. I don't want a child and I'm probably not a good mom, but I'm wise enough to know that IF I'd have an abortion that wouldn't be easy, nice or ''ah well let's go have sex now again'' at all. You don't just shrug it off. It's almost an insult to suggest these women don't have valid reasons to abort the foetus or aren't aware of alternatives and what not.

You don't just go to an abortion clinic for fun.

You have the ideas versus the hard reality. What is good in the eyes of philosophy or religion is in real life often a disaster. I don't want unwanted children to be born with horrible/poor moms just for the sake of a god many don't even believe in anymore.

Giving the child away is even worse perhaps in many cases, so I wouldn't opt that as a valid reason to plea against the legality of abortion. There's this conflict with reality.



Kurgan
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14 Jun 2013, 3:07 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
Neither pro-choice, nor pro-life. There are a-holes in the pro-life guild who think abortion at 26 weeks can be justified (they moved the goalposts to 'certain viability' after it was made clear that a fetus was conscious at 16 weeks)—and there are nutjobs in the pro-choice guild who think an embryo at 10 days is a fully sentient human being.

Erm, have you got those camps the wrong way around, or are there pro-lifers who think abortion can be justified at 26 weeks?

I think that as a foetus develops, the harder it becomes for a woman to abort it. Therefore, if a woman is determined to abort her foetus, she should be allowed to, because if she's looked at the options and decided abortion is the best one, then it probably is.


A misspelling. I apologize for that.



persian85033
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14 Jun 2013, 3:19 pm

This is a very difficult topic for me. I'm Catholic and I know that abortion is wrong. However, I'm also aware that there are just too many people and soon we're going to be running out of resources. People shouldn't be having so many kids!

And most people aren't really fit to become parents. Being a parent is one job you don't need any kind of degree for, but I think you should. Just read one book on something like child care or education and you'll see. It's a huge job, I think. That's one reason I'm never doing it. I don't care for children, so why should I make my life and theirs miserable because I feel like it's mandatory to be married and have children? I've actually heard that there are people who feel that they MUST marry and have children by the time they're a certain age. My grandmother once asked me, my brother, and my cousins when one of us was going to give her grandchildren. Those people who do have children should have them because they honestly want them and are aware of the responsibility that comes with it, and are willing and able to take on that responsibility.


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NewDawn
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14 Jun 2013, 3:35 pm

This story is medically such utter nonsense that it can't possibly be true. I'd be rolling on the floor if it weren't so sad that people resort to such bunk. (The Herald Sun isn't exactly an objective newpaper).

OK, why?

Fetuses that are 32 weeks old are viable, meaning that they can breath on their own. If it was really necessary to deliver the fetus with the heart defect (it's not an abortion when a fetus is viable), the only safe option is caesarian section to spare the healthy fetus and carry it to term. Lethal injection would either induce labour, or poison the other healthy fetus and probably also the mother.

Even if it were true (doctors sometimes do very stupid things), it's nothing compared to the number of women that die every year from an unsafe abortion because they can't get a safe abortion in their country. Abortion wasn't legalized in my country because doctors are so happy to abort fetuses. They asked the government for it because of the tragedies of unsafe abortions they had to deal with every single week. Legalizing abortion saves lives.

If the option of legal abortion is coupled with decent sex education (not just 'abstinence only') and providing contraceptives for free and anonymously, the rate of abortion goes down. In my country the rate of abortion is highest among ethnic and religious groups that are so-called 'pro-life', and lowest among non religious native Dutch women and women from ethnic groups that have intergrated well into Dutch society.



Ann2011
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14 Jun 2013, 3:54 pm

pawelk1986 wrote:
...it sounds cruel, but I think it was divine intervention, because the good Lord always protect the weaker ones.

But only once. I don't understand this. It would seem that God is making a futile gesture.
Quote:
I wonder why this woman chose to abort their second child, made ​​a mistake, but you made ​​the same mistake twice in a row, I can not understand this.

The defect and associated problems still existed.

I feel bad for the doctor though . . . that was one hell of a mistake.



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14 Jun 2013, 4:30 pm

I haev no problem with abortionn - if a woman or the fmaily doesnt want the child for wahtever reason, it is their own busines. It is actualy encouraged in my religon in the case if it is discoverd the child has a percivable defect, becuse we abhor deformity. Abortion is ilegal in this cuontry last I checked but we haev our own ways of aborting wthout needing medical doctors - realy then the law doesnt stop anyoen who realy wants to trash a kid.


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14 Jun 2013, 5:16 pm

Lots of abortions could be avoided if people would use birth control,no unwanted pregnancy,no abortion.But that would be to easy.It seems wasteful of life, but it's the woman's choice.Some medications cause birth defects,and since no birth control is 100% there is always the chance of an accidental pregnancy.Woman may have health issues such as having chemo,even if they wanted the baby, it wouldn't be a good idea.
It would be great if every child that was conceived was wanted,but thats never going to happen.
If it was illegal you'd have botched abortions and dead women.The back alley abortion clinics would be booming.In LA you would be able to get a illegal abortion and Botox all at the same place.


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14 Jun 2013, 6:43 pm

Misslizard wrote:
Lots of abortions could be avoided if people would use birth control,no unwanted pregnancy,no abortion.But that would be to easy.It seems wasteful of life, but it's the woman's choice.Some medications cause birth defects,and since no birth control is 100% there is always the chance of an accidental pregnancy.Woman may have health issues such as having chemo,even if they wanted the baby, it wouldn't be a good idea.
It would be great if every child that was conceived was wanted,but thats never going to happen.
If it was illegal you'd have botched abortions and dead women.The back alley abortion clinics would be booming.In LA you would be able to get a illegal abortion and Botox all at the same place.


A lot of the anti-abortion extremists are also anti-birth control, which they equate with murder(!). They say women shouldn't use the pill, men shouldn't use condoms, and people should just abstain - apparently even if they're married. These people are anti-human.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer



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14 Jun 2013, 6:46 pm

WildTaltos wrote:
I haev no problem with abortionn - if a woman or the fmaily doesnt want the child for wahtever reason, it is their own busines. It is actualy encouraged in my religon in the case if it is discoverd the child has a percivable defect, becuse we abhor deformity. Abortion is ilegal in this cuontry last I checked but we haev our own ways of aborting wthout needing medical doctors - realy then the law doesnt stop anyoen who realy wants to trash a kid.


Excuse me, but which faith do you belong to that abhors deformity?

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer