Capitalism and Communism

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31 Oct 2013, 10:06 am

Capitalism is the unequal distribution of wealth.
Capitalism is the unequal distribution of misery.

Communism is the equal distribution of wealth.
Communism is the equal distribution of misery.

Are any of these statements true or false. Which ones are true and which are false? After that, please give your reasoning as to why.

RushKing
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31 Oct 2013, 10:16 am

cubedemon6073 wrote:

Capitalism is the unequal distribution of wealth.
Capitalism is the unequal distribution of misery.

True

cubedemon6073 wrote:

Communism is the equal distribution of wealth.

True, equal enough to be classless.

cubedemon6073 wrote:

Communism is the equal distribution of misery.

Some people are biologically determined to be more miserable than others regardless of the economic system. So false, and people would still injure themselves.

LKL
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31 Oct 2013, 1:32 pm

what if the statements specified 'artificially induced' misery?

cubedemon6073
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31 Oct 2013, 1:37 pm

LKL wrote:

what if the statements specified 'artificially induced' misery?

LKL, can you go into this further? You may be onto something.

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31 Oct 2013, 1:49 pm

But how many examples of true capitalism & communism are there in the world?
Almost all of the major nations are varying shades of corporatism, facism & socialism. None of which are anything near capitalism & communism.

In true capitalism, people enjoy the fruits of their own labor.
In true communism, no individual or group lords power over subservient masses.

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thomas81
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31 Oct 2013, 2:19 pm

RBE is the only system which seeks to eradicate misery.

Well, misery in as much as it is linked to adversity. Some people are miserable regardless of their material conditioning. Mega rich celebrities who whine about being bored or hounded by photographers. That sort of thing.

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thomas81
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31 Oct 2013, 2:25 pm

pete1061 wrote:

In true capitalism, people enjoy the fruits of their own labor.
.

I would actually question that.

The political author George Monbiot recently made a very true statement, "if under capitalism, hard work equated to success, then every woman in africa who walks miles just to get water should be super rich".

The case is very often under capitalism that labour, with the exception of a few individuals rarely reaps true fruits in relation to the amount of work done. Conversely, you have people living in immense privilege for no reason other than being lucky enough to slide out of the right vagina.

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Last edited by thomas81 on 31 Oct 2013, 2:43 pm, edited 2 times in total.

cubedemon6073
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31 Oct 2013, 2:26 pm

thomas81 wrote:

What's RBE?

1000Knives
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31 Oct 2013, 2:26 pm

Here's a big long boring thesis I posted here a long time ago by an Orthodox priest.

http://www.oodegr.com/english/koinwnia/ ... ismos1.htm
He concludes that "capitalism" as we know it today is actually a product of Western/Protestant thought processes. And Communism is a product of the capitalism made in the Western worldview.

Quote:

It is within this frameset that we should also see the existence of Capitalism. In fact, there used to be a pre-capitalistic Capitalism; this is why there is some confusion among these issues. This means Capitalism does not consist of an limitless desire for the realisation of profit. The pursuit of money, the desire to become wealthy, the desire to acquire material goods and capital are all linked to the person and can be found in every phase of his life. If we were to regard such desires “Capitalism”, then this perception “belongs to the kindergarten of historical teaching”.

The difference is that in the Western Middle Ages, Capitalism took on the form of a rational organisation; it was the pursuit of profit, “within the framework of a permanent, rationalistically-organised capitalist business, with efficiency as its criterion”.[b] In the entire world and in every era, we meet tradesmen and merchants, small or great; but only in the West did a form of Capitalism develop “in types, forms and directions, which had never existed anywhere else until then”. Indeed, a particular form of Capitalism was developed in the West that consisted of “a rational, capitalistic organising of (technically) free labour”.[[/b]

Quote:

His words are characteristic: “Whoever spends even the smallest amount of money unprofitably, spends six pounds a year unprofitably, which is the price for the use of 100 pounds... Whoever loses five shillings, does not only lose this amount, but also loses any advantage he could have had by utilizing it in a business – given that, by the time a young man reaches old age, he could, by beginning with those shillings, eventually gather an enormous sum of money”[xi].

It is impossible for one to fully comment on Franklin’s thoughts, or, of course, to analyse at length Max Weber’ thoughts and criticisms–penetrative observations, because the purpose of these analyses is a different one. The fact is that in Franklin’s counsels, one can clearly discern that a particular ethos is recommended – one that can be named the ethos of Capitalism – or rather, a particular way of life that expresses the spirit of Capitalism.

This particular ethos regards honesty as extremely beneficial and useful to man and, of course, all virtues are virtues to the degree that they too are beneficial and useful. Avarice constitutes the ideal of every honest person. The thirst for making more money should be satisfied, while one’s obligation to make more money is an end in itself, being Man’s sole purpose and objective. It appears that any transgressing from this way of life is in fact a dereliction of duty.

So sorry for the tl;dr, but yes. This I believe is what should be thought of when thinking of capitalism.

Last edited by 1000Knives on 31 Oct 2013, 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.

thomas81
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31 Oct 2013, 2:27 pm

cubedemon6073 wrote:

thomas81 wrote:

What's RBE?

Resource based economics.

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GGPViper
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31 Oct 2013, 2:41 pm

I think that the statements in the OP would need qualification to make sense.

Here are the top 10 most capitalist countries in the world (Measured by the Index of Economic Freedom) and with their corresponding inequality score (measured by their GINI score (higher = less equal) according to the World Bank):

1. Hong Kong (53.3)
2. Singapore (48.1)
3. Australia (30.5)
4. New Zealand (36.2)
5. Switzerland (33.7)
6. Canada (32.6)
7. Chile (52.1)
8. Mauritius (39.0)*
9. Denmark (24.0)**
10. United States (45.0)

The bottom 10 scorers on the Index of Economic Freedom are:

169. Iran (38.3)
170. Turkmenistan (40.8)
170. Equatorial Guinea*** (65.0)
171. Congo (47.3)
172. Myanmar*** (40.0)
173. Eritrea (No data)
174. Venezuela (44.8)
175. Zimbabwe (50.1)
176. Cuba*** (30.0)
177. North Korea*** (31.0)

However, this is a difficult comparison. A high score on the Index of Economic Freedom is definately an indicator of capitalism, given its components, a low score may be due to corruption, which is (as far as I know) not a necessary condition for communism.

So I consulted Wikipedia (the Truth, the whole Tooth, and nothing but the Ruth), and came up with the following list of socialist countries (unranked - same source for GINI):

China (47.0)
Cuba*** (30.0)
Laos (36.7)
Vietnam (35.6)
Bangladesh (32.1)
Guyana (44.5)
India (33.4)
North Korea*** (31.0)
Portugal (38.5)
Sri Lanka (40.3)
Tanzania (37.6)

Summary:
There appears to be no definitive link between (in)equality and capitalism/communism. Depending on choice of method, capitalism is likely to either increase or decrease inequality

However, since highly capitalist countries also tend to be very wealthy countries (7 of the top 10 capitalist countries above are among the 20 richest countries in the world according to The World Bank), having a lower share of society income in a highly capitalist country is likely to provide a higher standard of living than a higher share of society income in a highly communist/socialist country.

Sources:
http://www.heritage.org/index/explore
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... _transfers
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_so ... _countries
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_co ... per_capita

*No World Bank data. CIA data used instead.
**Lowest income inequality in the world according to the World Bank.
***No World Bank Data. World Peace Index Data used instead.

Last edited by GGPViper on 31 Oct 2013, 4:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Fnord
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31 Oct 2013, 3:01 pm

How dare you introduce valid data and verifiable facts into this discussion? Don't you realize that they could offend a lot of Socialists, Communists, and other Share-the-Wealth types? Not to mention those who simply lack what ever it takes to become successful on their own ...

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31 Oct 2013, 3:14 pm

Fnord wrote:

So, do you endorse Canadian style "Capitalism" complete with its obviously "capitalist" universal health care?

I'm sure most of us American commies would settle for that.

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cubedemon6073
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31 Oct 2013, 4:07 pm

GoonSquad wrote:

Fnord wrote:

So, do you endorse Canadian style "Capitalism" complete with its obviously "capitalist" universal health care?

I'm sure most of us American commies would settle for that.

My friend, you're wasting your time. All he is doing is baiting you. To be honest, so is occupy wall street. The problem is most of the 99% are not against the 1% like you think. I am going to use this in a figurative way. The assumption that those like OWS, Noam Chomsky, George Soros, Chris Hedges has is the 99% are being raped by the 1%. Herein lies the problem. This is not true. It is consensual. The 99% are not against the 1% they want to become the 1%. Most of the 99% do not want change. They believe in the American Dream when the actual Dream is the problem. The business of the USA is business. There is no balance of spiritualism, philosophy, literature, etc. We are an extreme sensate culture. http://satyagraha.wordpress.com/2010/08 ... modernity/

It is true we do have a high standard of living now but how long will that last. Look who is considered the most powerful leader in the world now. It is Putin and not Obama. There is no fixing of the USA. The only way out is through.

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31 Oct 2013, 4:18 pm

cubedemon6073 wrote:

Capitalism is the unequal distribution of wealth.
Capitalism is the unequal distribution of misery.

This only requires the briefest examination to be verified as true.

Quote:

Communism is the equal distribution of wealth.
Communism is the equal distribution of misery.

Again, these only require the briefest of examination (see Viper's figures above, though if you lived in a communist country even less examination would be required) to be verified as false.

The only way I can see the truth values of these statements being interpreted differently is if the statements are taken as analytic ones. For example, if capitalism is defined as "the equal distribution of wealth", then the statement "capitalism is the unequal distribution of wealth" is analytically false.

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31 Oct 2013, 4:28 pm

GoonSquad wrote:

So, do you endorse Canadian style "Capitalism" complete with its obviously "capitalist" universal health care?

It did seem odd that Denmark, Australia, New Zealand and Canada are all considered MORE capitalist than the USA. Or at any rate more "economically free," whatever that might mean.

And that Hong Kong is considered a "country?" Not even sure what that's about.

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