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jimservo
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07 Feb 2007, 3:13 pm

From a newspaper from Delaware...

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California's attorney general last year asked a federal judge to force automakers to disclose their dealings with climate change skeptics, including Legates, in a dispute over greenhouse gas limits for new cars. General Motors, DaimlerChrysler and the Alliance of Automobile Manufacturers are defendants in that suit.

"The climate skeptics have played a major role in spreading disinformation about global warming," California Attorney General Bill Lockyer wrote.

The request included a quote from the book "The Heat is On," by former reporter and author Ross Gelbspan: "The tiny group of dissenting scientists have been given prominent public visibility and congressional influence out of all proportion to their standing in the scientific community on the issue of global warming."

Union of Concerned Scientists, Greenpeace and other organizations have cited Legates' ties to several groups that have supported or emphasized skeptical stands on climate change, while they also received regular contributions from ExxonMobil. Those organizations include the National Center for Policy Analysis, which has received about $421,000 from ExxonMobil, and the George C. Marshall Institute, which received $630,000.


(source link)

What are people's views on this? Should scientists who do not agree with the majority be condemned?

I don't see what is wrong with a scientist accepting money for studies from a "industrial" or "pro-market" connected group. Many scientists who are back theories that say humans are the primary cause of global warming do studies accept from left of center groups. That is unless on simply does not believe that environmentalist groups are political in nature.



TheMachine1
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07 Feb 2007, 3:24 pm

Yeah if you look at any studies on any subject where money is at stake you see questionable objectivity. I'm more knowledgeable on chemicals for various medical
problems and have seen many industry funded studies for nutritional supplements that
are deceptive or completely bogus.

On the subject of climate change I do not buy into the doom and gloom prediction from global warming. But I think its reasonable to say burning fossil fuel that has locked up carbon for a 100,000,000 years is going to effect the temperture.



skafather84
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07 Feb 2007, 3:24 pm

i want facts.


the last climate change dissuasion article i read contained no facts but rather complaining that that particular side of the argument is always attacked.



jimservo
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07 Feb 2007, 3:32 pm

skafather84 wrote:
i want facts.


the last climate change dissuasion article i read contained no facts but rather complaining that that particular side of the argument is always attacked.


Forgive me, but I am unsure what this is a reference to. I am aware what the article I linked to was not a discussion on the particulars of global warming but something related to that said discussion.



skafather84
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07 Feb 2007, 3:34 pm

last article i read on climate change wrote:
Global Warming is not due to human contribution of Carbon Dioxide
Global Warming: The Cold, Hard Facts?
By Timothy Ball

Monday, February 5, 2007

Global Warming, as we think we know it, doesn't exist. And I am not the only one trying to make people open up their eyes and see the truth. But few listen, despite the fact that I was the first Canadian Ph.D. in Climatology and I have an extensive background in climatology, especially the reconstruction of past climates and the impact of climate change on human history and the human condition. Few listen, even though I have a Ph.D, (Doctor of Science) from the University of London, England and was a climatology professor at the University of Winnipeg. For some reason (actually for many), the World is not listening. Here is why.


What would happen if tomorrow we were told that, after all, the Earth is flat? It would probably be the most important piece of news in the media and would generate a lot of debate. So why is it that when scientists who have studied the Global Warming phenomenon for years say that humans are not the cause nobody listens? Why does no one acknowledge that the Emperor has no clothes on?

Believe it or not, Global Warming is not due to human contribution of Carbon Dioxide (CO2). This in fact is the greatest deception in the history of science. We are wasting time, energy and trillions of dollars while creating unnecessary fear and consternation over an issue with no scientific justification. For example, Environment Canada brags about spending $3.7 billion in the last five years dealing with climate change almost all on propaganda trying to defend an indefensible scientific position while at the same time closing weather stations and failing to meet legislated pollution targets.

No sensible person seeks conflict, especially with governments, but if we don't pursue the truth, we are lost as individuals and as a society. That is why I insist on saying that there is no evidence that we are, or could ever cause global climate change. And, recently, Yuri A. Izrael, Vice President of the United Nations sponsored Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change (IPCC) confirmed this statement. So how has the world come to believe that something is wrong?

Maybe for the same reason we believed, 30 years ago, that global cooling was the biggest threat: a matter of faith. "It is a cold fact: the Global Cooling presents humankind with the most important social, political, and adaptive challenge we have had to deal with for ten thousand years. Your stake in the decisions we make concerning it is of ultimate importance; the survival of ourselves, our children, our species," wrote Lowell Ponte in 1976.

I was as opposed to the threats of impending doom global cooling engendered as I am to the threats made about Global Warming. Let me stress I am not denying the phenomenon has occurred. The world has warmed since 1680, the nadir of a cool period called the Little Ice Age (LIA) that has generally continued to the present. These climate changes are well within natural variability and explained quite easily by changes in the sun. But there is nothing unusual going on.

Since I obtained my doctorate in climatology from the University of London, Queen Mary College, England my career has spanned two climate cycles. Temperatures declined from 1940 to 1980 and in the early 1970's global cooling became the consensus. This proves that consensus is not a scientific fact. By the 1990's temperatures appeared to have reversed and Global Warming became the consensus. It appears I'll witness another cycle before retiring, as the major mechanisms and the global temperature trends now indicate a cooling.

No doubt passive acceptance yields less stress, fewer personal attacks and makes career progress easier. What I have experienced in my personal life during the last years makes me understand why most people choose not to speak out; job security and fear of reprisals. Even in University, where free speech and challenge to prevailing wisdoms are supposedly encouraged, academics remain silent.

I once received a three page letter that my lawyer defined as libellous, from an academic colleague, saying I had no right to say what I was saying, especially in public lectures. Sadly, my experience is that universities are the most dogmatic and oppressive places in our society. This becomes progressively worse as they receive more and more funding from governments that demand a particular viewpoint.

In another instance, I was accused by Canadian environmentalist David Suzuki of being paid by oil companies. That is a lie. Apparently he thinks if the fossil fuel companies pay you have an agenda. So if Greenpeace, Sierra Club or governments pay there is no agenda and only truth and enlightenment?

Personal attacks are difficult and shouldn't occur in a debate in a civilized society. I can only consider them from what they imply. They usually indicate a person or group is losing the debate. In this case, they also indicate how political the entire Global Warming debate has become. Both underline the lack of or even contradictory nature of the evidence.

I am not alone in this journey against the prevalent myth. Several well-known names have also raised their voices. Michael Crichton, the scientist, writer and filmmaker is one of them. In his latest book, "State of Fear" he takes time to explain, often in surprising detail, the flawed science behind Global Warming and other imagined environmental crises.

Another cry in the wildenerness is Richard Lindzen's. He is an atmospheric physicist and a professor of meteorology at MIT, renowned for his research in dynamic meteorology - especially atmospheric waves. He is also a member of the National Academy of Sciences and has held positions at the University of Chicago, Harvard University and MIT. Linzen frequently speaks out against the notion that significant Global Warming is caused by humans. Yet nobody seems to listen.

I think it may be because most people don't understand the scientific method which Thomas Kuhn so skilfully and briefly set out in his book "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions." A scientist makes certain assumptions and then produces a theory which is only as valid as the assumptions. The theory of Global Warming assumes that CO2 is an atmospheric greenhouse gas and as it increases temperatures rise. It was then theorized that since humans were producing more CO2 than before, the temperature would inevitably rise. The theory was accepted before testing had started, and effectively became a law.

As Lindzen said many years ago: "the consensus was reached before the research had even begun." Now, any scientist who dares to question the prevailing wisdom is marginalized and called a sceptic, when in fact they are simply being good scientists. This has reached frightening levels with these scientists now being called climate change denier with all the holocaust connotations of that word. The normal scientific method is effectively being thwarted.

Meanwhile, politicians are being listened to, even though most of them have no knowledge or understanding of science, especially the science of climate and climate change. Hence, they are in no position to question a policy on climate change when it threatens the entire planet. Moreover, using fear and creating hysteria makes it very difficult to make calm rational decisions about issues needing attention.

Until you have challenged the prevailing wisdom you have no idea how nasty people can be. Until you have re-examined any issue in an attempt to find out all the information, you cannot know how much misinformation exists in the supposed age of information.

I was greatly influenced several years ago by Aaron Wildavsky's book "Yes, but is it true?" The author taught political science at a New York University and realized how science was being influenced by and apparently misused by politics. He gave his graduate students an assignment to pursue the science behind a policy generated by a highly publicised environmental concern. To his and their surprise they found there was little scientific evidence, consensus and justification for the policy. You only realize the extent to which Wildavsky's findings occur when you ask the question he posed. Wildavsky's students did it in the safety of academia and with the excuse that it was an assignment. I have learned it is a difficult question to ask in the real world, however I firmly believe it is the most important question to ask if we are to advance in the right direction.


Dr. Tim Ball, Chairman of the Natural Resources Stewardship Project (www.nrsp.com), is a Victoria-based environmental consultant and former climatology professor at the University of Winnipeg. He can be reached at [email protected]



dexkaden
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07 Feb 2007, 8:27 pm

Hmm...whenever I hear the words "crisis" and "government funding" used together, I just think of the Hegelian Dialectic


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Xenon
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07 Feb 2007, 11:20 pm

last article i read on climate change wrote:
Since I obtained my doctorate in climatology from the University of London, Queen Mary College, England my career has spanned two climate cycles. Temperatures declined from 1940 to 1980 and in the early 1970's global cooling became the consensus. This proves that consensus is not a scientific fact. By the 1990's temperatures appeared to have reversed and Global Warming became the consensus. It appears I'll witness another cycle before retiring, as the major mechanisms and the global temperature trends now indicate a cooling.


You all realize, of course, that if/when we go back into a cooling phase, the Global Warming crowd will crow about how all their work has succeeded.


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headphase
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08 Feb 2007, 2:13 am

Global cooling was never the consensus. I study in meteorology and I have never heard of a Phd in Climatology.



Griff
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09 Feb 2007, 12:43 am

jimservo wrote:
I don't see what is wrong with a scientist accepting money for studies from a "industrial" or "pro-market" connected group.
I am against anyone tampering in this way.

Quote:
Many scientists who are back theories that say humans are the primary cause of global warming do studies accept from left of center groups.
This is also ridiculous. Let the propellor heads do their work.

Quote:
That is unless on simply does not believe that environmentalist groups are political in nature.
Concern for environmental well-being does not equate to "leftist," though. Don't be ridiculous.



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09 Feb 2007, 10:36 pm

I say again that "An Inconvient Truth" is not inconvenient at all if you are one who wanted larger government, more supranational treaties, higher taxes, reduced prosperity (not for yourself of course), and reduced personal freedoms all along.



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10 Feb 2007, 12:41 am

I think that the worrying over Global Warming is unfounded. They've pretty much verified that at one point the globe was somewhat warmer than it is now because of the trade route they found around the Arctic ocean. If you want to get away from scientifically established things, try some of the maps of Antarctica from the 1540s, showing it as an unfrozen country. (And, while the reports can't be prove, they DID use ultrasound to find a river that followed almost the exact course the old maps said it would).

In conclusion, if the temperature changes by 10 degrees farenheit (and it's unlikely to change by more than that), it's not going to cause the world to break apart. Some animals will go extinct, some new ones will evolve, and humans will do what they always do, find a way to adapt.



Griff
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10 Feb 2007, 12:56 am

nutbag wrote:
I say again that "An Inconvient Truth" is not inconvenient at all if you are one who wanted larger government, more supranational treaties, higher taxes, reduced prosperity (not for yourself of course), and reduced personal freedoms all along.
Supranational treaties will be unavoidable in a world in which there exists more than one nation at a time. We can chat about the merits/demerits of isolationism elsewhere, though. The form of demonization you're attempting here was once a very useful political ploy, but the Eighties are over, sir. Get a life.

If things start looking too bad, I'll be investing in some beachfront property in Alaska and some scenic settings in the Aleutian Islands. Conversely, I don't see any reason we shouldn't be able to resolve the problem by doing some blasting down in Anarctica. I could solve the problem for us in a few months by simply dropping a few big glaciers into the ocean. Hey, it may sound ridiculous now, but perhaps we'll see how ridiculous it seems after fifty years of climate shift.

However, this assumes that our technology and way of life will remain static. It will not, very nearly cannot. We're not going to be cruising around in internal combustion-driven machines fifty years from now. If you want to cling to that antiquated technology on your own time, more power to you. Better technologies are making their way into the market, though, and it's really only a matter of time until we hit the critical point at which they begin making their way into the hands of your average consumer. The market always provides.



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10 Feb 2007, 5:43 am

Law Of Accelerating Returns I believe.


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Xenon
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10 Feb 2007, 7:53 am

headphase wrote:
Global cooling was never the consensus. I study in meteorology and I have never heard of a Phd in Climatology.


I remember in the early 1980s the local planetarium had a show "The Ice Age Cometh?", about how the cooling trend in global climate may be a harbinger of the next Ice Age.

And you can get a PhD in just about anything.


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headphase
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10 Feb 2007, 2:54 pm

Xenon wrote:
headphase wrote:
Global cooling was never the consensus. I study in meteorology and I have never heard of a Phd in Climatology.


I remember in the early 1980s the local planetarium had a show "The Ice Age Cometh?", about how the cooling trend in global climate may be a harbinger of the next Ice Age.

And you can get a PhD in just about anything.

So a planetarium is the consensus? We are headed for an ice age, it is just a different time scale.

Usually a Phd is more descriptive showing that you have done some research.

Like this guy here who has studied urban climates:http://www.mcmaster.ca/ua/alumni/gallery/oke.htm

or this person here who studied arctic climatology:http://www.science.ca/scientists/scientistprofile.php?pID=168

By the way these Canadians both got their degrees before Timothy Ball, which is why he had to change, "the first Canadian Ph.D. in Climatology", to, "one of the first Canadian Ph.Ds. in Climatology."



Xenon
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10 Feb 2007, 4:44 pm

headphase wrote:
So a planetarium is the consensus?


Not on its own, no. But you'd never see a show like that today because the consensus now is that we're warming up. The fact that a show like that could be made 25 years ago indicates that the prevailing attitude towards climate back then was in the opposite direction than it is now.

Still, there is one thing that some people miss... the overall global climate of the past 10,000 years or so is just an interglacial between the last Ice Age and the next one. And previous interglacials lasted between 8,000 and 12,000 years...


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