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if healthcare is a human right then why is food not?

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chris5000
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23 Feb 2014, 7:53 pm

why is food not free in country's with free healthcare? im pretty sure you need food to live more than healthcare so why is all food not free?



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23 Feb 2014, 8:11 pm

Because the commie's poison hasn't gotten that far into our government's veins.


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23 Feb 2014, 8:11 pm

Where I live, a lot a times the food is free.



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23 Feb 2014, 8:14 pm

chris5000 wrote:
why is food not free in country's with free healthcare? im pretty sure you need food to live more than healthcare so why is all food not free?

Because markets.

People are given money, with which they can buy an adequate supply of food. There is much more choice about what to buy though, so it makes more sense to leave that choice with the consumer than just give them free food.

Despite that, there are organisations that give free food to the needy.



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23 Feb 2014, 8:18 pm

chris5000 wrote:
why is food not free in country's with free healthcare? im pretty sure you need food to live more than healthcare so why is all food not free?


The healthcare isn't actually free. It's paid for collectively by taxes. Consider the nightmare logistics of attempting to have all food paid for collectively and distributed collectively as well.



thomas81
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23 Feb 2014, 8:28 pm

chris5000 wrote:
why is food not free in country's with free healthcare? im pretty sure you need food to live more than healthcare so why is all food not free?


because we have price system based economic systems which place value on spending power, not human need.

In countries like the UK, Universal health care systems came about not inherently because the UK is more left wing or more socialist than America but because of the direct effect of World War 2.

Had mainland America been hit hard by blitzes, it would probably have a more european style attitude towards healthcare provision.

Yes though, i do ask the same question. I agree that the NHS doesnt go far enough. Why can't we have a national education service, national utility service, national nutrition service or even national transport service that does across the board what the NHS does for medicine? The money is there for it, if only our politicians had the spine to pursue it.


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Ganondox
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23 Feb 2014, 9:58 pm

chris5000 wrote:
why is food not free in country's with free healthcare? im pretty sure you need food to live more than healthcare so why is all food not free?


Because food is more than substance, there is range of food of a range of flavors. It's a commodity. While ineffective and usually understocked, there is usually somesort of institution to ensure the foodless are provided with some level of sustenance.


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thomas81
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23 Feb 2014, 10:17 pm

Ganondox wrote:
chris5000 wrote:
why is food not free in country's with free healthcare? im pretty sure you need food to live more than healthcare so why is all food not free?


Because food is more than substance, there is range of food of a range of flavors. It's a commodity. While ineffective and usually understocked, there is usually somesort of institution to ensure the foodless are provided with some level of sustenance.


Perhaps but food at its most basic level shouldn't be commodified.

Its necessary for the preservation of life therefore should be regarded as a human right.


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sliqua-jcooter
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23 Feb 2014, 10:17 pm

chris5000 wrote:
why is food not free in country's with free healthcare? im pretty sure you need food to live more than healthcare so why is all food not free?


This is a somewhat disingenuous question, based on faulty assumptions.

You assume that in countries that provide state-funded healthcare that all such care is free - this is often (perhaps always) not the case.

On a societal level, a minimum standard of living is defined for the populace that dictates what lengths that society will go to in order to maintain that minimum standard of living (and, hopefully, progressively raise it over time). Countries which enjoy state-sponsored healthcare have included a level of minimum healthcare in their standard of living - but to exceed that standard of living, the individual is responsible for that on their own. For instance, purely cosmetic surgery isn't covered by any state-sponsored healthcare that I'm aware of.

Thus, the reason foie gras isn't free is the same reason why the Government won't pay for your nose job - it's not included in the standard of living we have set for ourselves.


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sliqua-jcooter
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23 Feb 2014, 10:21 pm

thomas81 wrote:
Perhaps but food at its most basic level shouldn't be commodified.


Traditionally, governmental attempts to subsidize foodstuffs have lead to disastrous consequences.

The current abundance of cheap, unhealthy processed foods is a direct result of US corn and grain subsidies, for instance.


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luanqibazao
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23 Feb 2014, 10:26 pm

Food does not fall from the sky. It has to be planted, grown, harvested, raised, slaughtered, butchered, prepared, transported, packaged, likely transported again. The people who do all that, are they your slaves?



thomas81
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23 Feb 2014, 10:30 pm

sliqua-jcooter wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
Perhaps but food at its most basic level shouldn't be commodified.


Traditionally, governmental attempts to subsidize foodstuffs have lead to disastrous consequences.

The current abundance of cheap, unhealthy processed foods is a direct result of US corn and grain subsidies, for instance.


that could be, and is more likely to be an indictment of US corner cutting under-investment rather than the idea of subsidised food per sae.


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thomas81
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23 Feb 2014, 10:32 pm

luanqibazao wrote:
Food does not fall from the sky. It has to be planted, grown, harvested, raised, slaughtered, butchered, prepared, transported, packaged, likely transported again. The people who do all that, are they your slaves?


Well yes, that would be the case if you were solely referring to small, sustinance farmers. However here in the west particuarly, as we all know, that is not where our food comes from.

Therefore, your argument makes faulty assumptions.

Namely-

1- that farms should be privately owned by for profit organisations.
*particularly since these companies demonstrably produce low quality food and appalling standards of animal welfare, all for the gain not necessarilly of labourers but a tiny number of executives.
Why should the labourers, transport drivers or slaughtermen be the slaves of the executives any more than any one else?

2- that the current economic mode of currency for produce is the only one operable.
If we have a resource based system of economics in operation it removes the profit motive.


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thomas81
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23 Feb 2014, 10:43 pm

sliqua-jcooter wrote:

You assume that in countries that provide state-funded healthcare that all such care is free - this is often (perhaps always) not the case.
.


To me, the issue is not so much whether the healthcare is free, moreover it is available at the point of demand irrespective of your circumstances or ability to pay.

Also, the fact that your suitability for treatment is being guaged by a doctor rather than a insurance company based on profit motivated reasons is another big factor.


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sliqua-jcooter
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23 Feb 2014, 10:47 pm

thomas81 wrote:
that could be, and is more likely to be an indictment of US corner cutting under-investment rather than the idea of subsidised food per sae.


Not quite, although that's certainly what it has become.

The food policy was originally designed during the Great Depression to turn corn and wheat into staple crops that everyone could afford, as well as to provide guarantees for farmers to continue to plant grains, and to plant more grains to combat the dust bowls.

What ended up happening was such an overabundance of grain - particularly corn - that a large chunk of university research was being put into new ways to use corn and other grains. This has led to numerous discoveries, chief among them for purposes of this discussion being High Fructose Corn Syrup.


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sliqua-jcooter
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23 Feb 2014, 10:51 pm

thomas81 wrote:
o me, the issue is not so much whether the healthcare is free, moreover it is available at the point of demand irrespective of your circumstances or ability to pay.


You missed my point entirely - the point wasn't that healthcare comes with some sort of cost (regardless of the fact that the individual doesn't pay that cost). It's certainly true, but also irrelevant - just as you've said.

The point was that no society will pay for absolutely any desired healthcare, but rather they pay for healthcare for the populace to sustain a standard of living, and that care beyond that standard is the responsibility of the individual. I used the example of purely cosmetic surgery as an example.


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