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Don_Pedro_Zamacona
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23 Apr 2014, 12:55 pm

Perhaps because a lot of folks like the idea of being completely self-reliant and free from societies rules? :P



Time for a reality check.



The_Walrus
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23 Apr 2014, 1:13 pm

I thought this was going to be a thread about what "libertarian" sounds like. It reminds me of a team of second-rate super heroes. Only the totalitarians have a better name.



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23 Apr 2014, 1:43 pm

The guy in the OP's link is apparently completely batshit... Or a highly sophisticated troll...

http://web.inter.nl.net/users/Paul.Trea ... alues.html
http://web.inter.nl.net/users/Paul.Trea ... drich.html

And from his blog:

http://politicalaspects.wordpress.com/2 ... -crusades/
http://politicalaspects.wordpress.com/2 ... se-murder/

8O :roll:

Anyway... IMO, the greatest problem for libertarianism is its inability to provide realistic policy answers to deal with environmental issues, and climate change in particular.



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23 Apr 2014, 1:53 pm

Because The Market provided them with it?


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23 Apr 2014, 2:03 pm

His "legalise murder" post was actually pretty good. For anyone who doesn't want to read it all, he suggested legalising murder one day a year, providing people with sufficient notice that a claim had been lodged to murder them and giving them the option of permanently leaving the country or fighting back or paying compensation. He reasoned that people would avoid applying to murder someone because they would find themselves the recipient of applications the following year, and similarly people would avoid doing harms that would motivate a murder application.

On topic, I found his criticisms of the ideology to be strong, if not flawless. In particular, he challenged the idea that markets are never tyrannical, which is one of my big gripes with libertarianism; he also pointed out that you need to define who gets protection (do animals? The unborn? The environment?) and then enforce those rules.



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23 Apr 2014, 2:44 pm

Don_Pedro_Zamacona wrote:
Perhaps because a lot of folks like the idea of being completely self-reliant and free from societies rules? :P


Unfortunately everyone being completely self reliant, isn't really realistic...I think the number of people that could actually get by being entirely self reliant are very few and far between. Seems like from what I know of libertarians their ideology really does not address that reality.


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khaoz
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23 Apr 2014, 11:53 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
His "legalise murder" post was actually pretty good. For anyone who doesn't want to read it all, he suggested legalising murder one day a year, providing people with sufficient notice that a claim had been lodged to murder them and giving them the option of permanently leaving the country or fighting back or paying compensation. He reasoned that people would avoid applying to murder someone because they would find themselves the recipient of applications the following year, and similarly people would avoid doing harms that would motivate a murder application.

On topic, I found his criticisms of the ideology to be strong, if not flawless. In particular, he challenged the idea that markets are never tyrannical, which is one of my big gripes with libertarianism; he also pointed out that you need to define who gets protection (do animals? The unborn? The environment?) and then enforce those rules.


So, libertarians are uncivilized. I think his reasoning about murder is flawed. There are people out there with enough money or enough technology to be able to murder someone for no reason at all and who do not care a bit for their own life as long as they get even/closure(whatever you want to call it)



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24 Apr 2014, 12:29 am

Libertarians would argue that the "evils" the author mentions are not averted by sacrificing liberty to government .



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24 Apr 2014, 3:54 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
Don_Pedro_Zamacona wrote:
Perhaps because a lot of folks like the idea of being completely self-reliant and free from societies rules? :P


Unfortunately everyone being completely self reliant, isn't really realistic...I think the number of people that could actually get by being entirely self reliant are very few and far between. Seems like from what I know of libertarians their ideology really does not address that reality.


It doesn't really have that much to do with being self reliant actually. It has more to do with private liberty and being able to live according to your own conscious as long as you are not hurting some one or some thing else in the process. This idea seems more sound when you realize what a complete f**k up job our mostly pointless and wasteful government is doing.

Having to pay taxes so that the contractors in Afghanistan can charge the U.S. taxpayer 48,000$ for each hammer they use is getting to the point of absurdity. I dont really see any justification for anther person or the government to be telling anyone how to live.



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24 Apr 2014, 5:22 am

China Mieville wrote:
Libertarianism is by no means a unified movement. As many of its advocates proudly stress, it comprises a taxonomy of bickering branches–minarchists, objectivists, paleo- and neolibertarians, agorists, et various al.–just like a real social theory. Claiming a lineage with post-Enlightenment classical liberalism, as well as in some cases with the resoundingly portentous blatherings of Ayn Rand, all of its variants are characterized, to differing degrees, by fervent, even cultish, faith in what is quaintly termed the “free” market, and extreme antipathy to that vaguely conceived bogeyman, “the state,” with its regulatory and fiscal powers.

Above all, they recast their most banal avarice–the disinclination to pay tax–as a principled blow for political freedom. ...

[The Atlantis Project] is a libertarian dream. Hexagonal neighborhoods of square apartments bob sedately by tiny coiffed parks and tastefully featureless marinas, an Orange County of the soul. It is the ultimate gated community, designed not by the very rich and certainly not by the very powerful, but by the middlingly so. As a utopia, the Atlantis Project is pitiful. Beyond the single one-trick fact of its watery location, it is tragically non-ambitious, crippled with class anxiety, nostalgic not for mythic glory but for the anonymous sanctimony of an invented 1950s. This is no ruling class vision: it is the plaintive daydream of a petty bourgeoisie, whose sulky solution to perceived social problems is to run away–set sail into a tax-free sunset.

None of this is surprising. Libertarianism is not a ruling-class theory. It may be indulged, certainly, for the useful ideas it can throw up, and its prophets have at times influenced dominant ideologies–witness the cack-handed depredations of the “Chicago Boys” in Chile after Allende’s bloody overthrow. But untempered by the realpolitik of Reaganism and Thatcherism, the anti-statism of “pure” libertarianism is worse than useless to the ruling class.

Big capital will support tax-lowering measures, of course, but it does not need to piss and moan about taxes with the tedious relentlessness of the libertarian. Big capital, with its ranks of accountant-Houdinis, just gets on with not paying it. And why hate a state that pays so well? Big capital is big, after all, not only because of the generous contracts its state obligingly hands it, but because of the gun-ships with which its state opens up markets for it.

Libertarianism, by contrast, is a theory of those who find it hard to avoid their taxes, who are too small, incompetent or insufficiently connected to win Iraq-reconstruction contracts, or otherwise chow at the state trough. In its maundering about a mythical ideal-type capitalism, libertarianism betrays its fear of actually existing capitalism, at which it cannot quite succeed. It is a philosophy of capitalist inadequacy.


http://inthesetimes.com/article/3328/floating_utopias


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24 Apr 2014, 5:55 am

Libertarianism is quite broad.

I identify with it. I would more accurately call myself a competitionist. We need to encourage more competition in more sectors. We are much more contrived and protectionist than we like to admit to. We have thing such as limited liability, and over reaching and misnamed "intellectual property" laws, and more and more vague notions of property and capital which only exist becuase of legislation.

Personally, I think it is more a desire, or a target. There a branches of libertarian thinking, which are kind of like old theories on the universe, a bit wishful thinking.

Libertarianism, isn't quite the same as anarchist, or even survivalist.



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24 Apr 2014, 10:49 am

DevKit wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Don_Pedro_Zamacona wrote:
Perhaps because a lot of folks like the idea of being completely self-reliant and free from societies rules? :P


Unfortunately everyone being completely self reliant, isn't really realistic...I think the number of people that could actually get by being entirely self reliant are very few and far between. Seems like from what I know of libertarians their ideology really does not address that reality.


It doesn't really have that much to do with being self reliant actually. It has more to do with private liberty and being able to live according to your own conscious as long as you are not hurting some one or some thing else in the process. This idea seems more sound when you realize what a complete f**k up job our mostly pointless and wasteful government is doing.

Having to pay taxes so that the contractors in Afghanistan can charge the U.S. taxpayer 48,000$ for each hammer they use is getting to the point of absurdity. I dont really see any justification for anther person or the government to be telling anyone how to live.


I'd agree the government is doing a s**t job, however if it wasn't for programs like SSI I'd have nothing to live on....and thats funded by taxes, I hate when I find out about wasteful spending of tax money that could have been used on the infrastructure or social safety network. What would the libertarian solution be for disabled and poor people who currently need government assistance? I admit I don't know a ton about libertarian ideology, but as far as I can tell it just doesn't seem to quite address that issue...hence why I ask.


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24 Apr 2014, 11:50 am

Sweetleaf wrote:
I'd agree the government is doing a sh** job, however if it wasn't for programs like SSI I'd have nothing to live on....and thats funded by taxes, I hate when I find out about wasteful spending of tax money that could have been used on the infrastructure or social safety network. What would the libertarian solution be for disabled and poor people who currently need government assistance? I admit I don't know a ton about libertarian ideology, but as far as I can tell it just doesn't seem to quite address that issue...hence why I ask.


It's simple: libertarianism doesn't provide for a solution to that problem. Libertarianism is the philosophy that the Government's number one duty is to protect individual freedoms. Beyond that, you fill in the blanks with whatever other political philosophy you want.

Some libertarians would say that the government should not engage in any other activity other than protecting individual freedoms, and would say the solution to government aid is to get rid of it and let private charity take it's place. Other libertarians would say that the government has an interest in maintaining a standard of living and would allow government welfare programs, as long as none of the programs ran contrary to individual liberties.


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24 Apr 2014, 4:55 pm

Sweetleaf wrote:
DevKit wrote:
Sweetleaf wrote:
Don_Pedro_Zamacona wrote:
Perhaps because a lot of folks like the idea of being completely self-reliant and free from societies rules? :P


Unfortunately everyone being completely self reliant, isn't really realistic...I think the number of people that could actually get by being entirely self reliant are very few and far between. Seems like from what I know of libertarians their ideology really does not address that reality.


It doesn't really have that much to do with being self reliant actually. It has more to do with private liberty and being able to live according to your own conscious as long as you are not hurting some one or some thing else in the process. This idea seems more sound when you realize what a complete f**k up job our mostly pointless and wasteful government is doing.

Having to pay taxes so that the contractors in Afghanistan can charge the U.S. taxpayer 48,000$ for each hammer they use is getting to the point of absurdity. I dont really see any justification for anther person or the government to be telling anyone how to live.


I'd agree the government is doing a sh** job, however if it wasn't for programs like SSI I'd have nothing to live on....and thats funded by taxes, I hate when I find out about wasteful spending of tax money that could have been used on the infrastructure or social safety network. What would the libertarian solution be for disabled and poor people who currently need government assistance? I admit I don't know a ton about libertarian ideology, but as far as I can tell it just doesn't seem to quite address that issue...hence why I ask.


Its interesting, there are a lot more homeless people now than there was before SSI. There might be some personal interest in it for people to create a system that helps those who need it. Because of SSI, harsh laws, regulations and penalties there is absolutely no incentive for people in this country to help others in need. In fact, they are making it illegal, as we have seen in other threads. The governments system has a created a cesspool of people dependent on it who are less likely to be helped or help them selfs because of it. I am not saying that you are a part of a cesspool Sweetleaf :lol: but a lot of people are. There are A LOT of restrictions in place making it harder for people with little money or means to make a living and those restrictions are getting a lot worse these days, not better. The system has bread an atmosphere of cold hearted contempt for those who either really do need help or who are just going thru a bad period in their life.
http://wearechange.org/denver-now-illegal-sit-public/
(first link i found on google)