Basic Income is the only guarantee for liberty!

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The right to own property is said to be a vital part of the cornerstones of Liberty. It is so, because when you own your own property, you are free to do with it as you please, and nobody can tell you what to do or what not to do, on your own property. For example, you can grow your own food on your own land, thus becoming independent on supplies from the outside, or you could sell your food you grow on your land, in order to gain money to buy stuff from elsewhere. The point of it remains: Once you own land, you are free.
Or so it seems.

Set aside the government laws regulating your property, from taxing your property, to penalties for violating state laws - even if you do it on your own property (ie. you can't murder someone on your own land, you are still subject to the national penal code), there are some other outside factors deciding your liberties, even deciding whether you can own your property - at all!
These factors are primarily the market mechanisms. If you lose your job or for some reason cannot sell your products you grow on your land, or if you get sick/disabled, you will lose your source of income and become dependent on other people's mercy, and hence lose your freedom.

If you are dependent on your neighbor's mercy, you can't simply disagree with him over, let's say, politics. He will be able to threaten to kick you out of his home or cut your supplies.
This is one of the reasons why the Welfare State was constructed: To make those unfortunate to not have a job, get money from someone who care's only about the law and not your private life (except in case your private life is a matter of the law): The Government.

However, this has its drawbacks too. You are completely placed in the hands of the government, who too can do whatever it wants with your life. It can require you to sign up for the military, to do dirty work or otherwise interfere with your liberty you once had before you lost your own source of income/property.

This is why I want a Basic Income, that makes no requirements of you. You are not obliged to work, but you are encouraged to do so, because it makes you free to search for available jobs, though you still remain free to say no to it. But if you do get a job, your wages will add up to your Basic Income. For practical/economic reasons however, a Basic Income will have to be leveled down 1/3 for every dollar you make on your own (aside from the regular taxes).

When you get to 0 of your Basic Income, you will earn a lot more, because you now only have to pay a flat tax.
This way it will ALWAYS pay off for your to have a job, if you are capable of working. If you are not, you are still lucky enough to have a money supply which makes you independent of your fellow citizens, allowing you to have your personal freedom and allowing you to keep your property, for how small it may ever be.
Therefore, Basic Income is THE way to go, if we truly want liberty. Basic Income is the ONLY guarantee for liberty.

There was a nice time when the US government gave people land. Now they only do that in the deserts if at all. Before it was in Indian country. The government can be really weird. It's either, get frozen to death in the remote corners of Alaska (own your very own ice berg,) burn and die of thirst in the desert southwest near the boarder, close to all the smugglers, or live among neighbors who wished you would go off yourself.

I rather like that idea. For all the talk today among conservatives about fear of government overreach, the founders themselves had also feared the greatest threat to liberty was inequality.

I'm not talking about equality here. I'd rather have an inequal but safe and comfortable society, than a society where everybody are equal - and as such, has the equal duties.

This is exactly why I want this Basic Income. To make a guarantee to the people that the government can't touch them, if they don't DO anything that is against the law.

The problem arise when the government DEMAND something of you. Demand that you actively do something. This is the worst crime to humanity EVER.

I'd rather have my government prohibit my freedom of speech, rather than having a government demanding that I do this or do that.

You can ban a citizen from doing certain things, but never should you force him to do anything.

This is where you and I obviously would disagree. I agree with you that every person should have at least enough to survive, but I also believe things would slide back to where citizens are left without means of basic survival without the guarantee that the rich and powerful are equal to the commoner.

Being dependent on a government or any other institution for income is actually the opposite of liberty, it is economic slavery.

I dont get my liberties from the government or from any one else, they are innate and inalienable. The right to own property is just one of them, but it is one of the biggest. Anyone who tries or does disable my rights and freedom is in fact going against the government its self and breaking the law, even if it the government its self that does so.

Living is expensive, so is school. I think the government would either go broke, or not end up fixing the problem if it just applied money.

I don't see why the government couldn't apply cheaper methods for providing mass shelter; and I don't see why mass shelter would have to be a permanent situation.

Community colleges are more cost effective than 4 year colleges and they're often in touch with the demand of the local community as far as skill sets go. Even if universities are too expensive, a community college can act as a buffer against the full cost.

Of course they should be equal in terms of political freedoms. It was a philosophical worst-case scenario I made up: "Shut up and get your Basic Income" vs. "Say what you want, but do as we tell you", I'd
rather shut up and have my Basic Income.

But being dependent on Big Corporations thinking only on profits, not having to stand in front of the people during the time of election, for income, is NOT
economic slavery?!?!?

I trust private corporations as much as you trust government.
Problem is, todays governments are in the hands of the private corporations.

We must first ensure that the people actually got a say, but not neccessarily democracy. It should be a Dictatorship of the Proletariat, handing out free money to the people,
in return, the people should not criticise the government too much. Except in case the government wants to impose duties on the people.

Rights are better than duties. Todays corporationalism, is all about giving duties to the people, and limit our rights. It should be the other way around.

Friedman's negative income tax is an interesting idea as an alternative to the current welfare system but it is contingent on eliminating all other forms of welfare and their bureaucracies which will never ever happen.

http://www.pbs.org/newshour/making-sens ... re-slaves/

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibfmz0lknmM[/youtube]

It should be pointed out that it's corporations that are keeping wages artificially low, while are hiking up prices, thereby keeping more and more Americans in poverty, destroying equality, and with it liberty.

Let's think about this for a second. Are you saying everyone has the right to freedom? What if your freedom imposes on another's? Who has the right then? You or they?

Last edited by ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo on 13 Jun 2014, 6:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.

I don't know anyone who is dependent on Big Corporations. Nothing in my life happens at the mercy of a big corporation. If they are willing to provice a service or product for a price I deem fair then they are welcome to serve me. It you believe what the government has recently said then corporations are legally people, some people are good and can be trusted others cant, you have to take them on a case by case basis.

Yes, they have their hand in the government, yes there is fascism/corporatism going on. That is a failure of the people to regulate their own government, it is as much your and my fault as any one elses. It should be expected that people will try to corrupt government and it should be expected that if the majority of people dont do anything to stop it then it will happen. "Alls that is need for evil to succeed is for good men to do nothing." Think about it really, how many people dont give a damn that Monsanto and big pharma write their own laws? Look at this forum for an example. It is because of the people who dont care that it is happening. I dont trust government at all but I do see the potential for it to be much better. The history of the US has proven that it can be. Its lost a this point but not a lost cause.

I have two of my very own companies actually, yes I use them to make money. On the other hand I also use them to distribute my art, to make people feel happy, to express my self ect. . . They can make me independent of other corporations in not needing to be employed by them. I own small sole proprietorships, they are not mega corps. I make crap on my computer and in the studio i built in to my parents basement. One of the things I do is design games. My games are 2d, they are inexpensive to create but I see possibilities for the first time in my entire game design career to actually be able to profit from the fruits of my own labor. Yes, one day I would like to be able to afford the 60million$ it takes to make other kinds of games I want to make, I would like to be a millionaire from it and there is nothing wrong with that. yes, I have a right to make millions of bucks from my own labor. For now I am happy just to go around to music festivals, drop acid, shoot photos for a magazine and sell my tie dye shirts. But I will look very silly doing that when I am older in 5 years if I am not doing something else more productive with me life at the same time.

Human labour is over valued and over commodified.

If everyone had equal duties, it wouldnt be so bad if all the 'bad duties' were automated. For the first time in history, we are now in a position where that is technologically possible.

They have no effect on what I charge for my own goods and the profits I make. If you decide to go to work for them of your own free will you are accepting to do it for what ever they pay you. I get pretty good wholesale prices from a few corporations that let me sell my work at a monetary advantage to my self.



People are able to do what ever the they want as long as they are not hurting some one or some thing else.



No its not. If I have a skill or an ability to create something I can charge as much as people are willing to pay for it. It is impossible for it to be over valued, it can only be as valuable as what everyone else is willing to spend on it. If I have an exceptional skill or talent with a service that matches it I deserve to be paid more for it. You can cheap out and spend 300$ on a wedding photographer if you want to, you will not get great results and your friends will ask why the wedding photos are so bad. Its basic economics. Trying to force it to be something else has only ever failed.