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HarmonySeptember
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21 Jun 2014, 12:23 am

As a Christian, I feel like this question needs to be discussed on here instead of just stating "this is truth, and this is not". I will start:

If someone is holding a piece of paper, and he drops it, what are the chances of it becoming a paper airplane? None. If one drops a piece of paper, nothing significant would happen. However, if this person were to take the piece of paper and fold it into a paper airplane, what would he have? Well, a paper airplane.

Now apply this example to the universe. Does it look like something that just got dropped, even though we help the trees live from breathing out carbon dioxide, and the trees help us live from giving off oxygen? Is it a coincidence that we have the ability to appreciate beauty and feel love? Etc...

While discussing on this tread, try to avoid stating conclusions too often, unless you are answering someone's question.


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khaoz
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21 Jun 2014, 12:48 am

Why do you want to apply this question to the universe when you are unwilling to ask the same question about the God you believe in? And if you have asked the question about your God and found a satisfactory answer then why cannot you accept the answer that nonbelievers give about the univers because your explanation about the origin of you God is more irrational and implausible.



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21 Jun 2014, 2:48 am

Something doesn't come from nothing. That's a popular misconception among christians.

Everything is made of atoms, and atoms have been around since the beginning of the universe. Depending on how the atoms are arranged, you get different molecules. Everything in the universe is made of molecules. For example, you have oxygen molecules made of two oxygen atoms floating around in the atmosphere. When UV radiation from the sun hits those molecules, it breaks the oxygen atoms apart, and they can join back together to form oxygen again, or three of them can join together to form ozone. (That's what forms the ozone layer, which is what protects us from the sun's radiation).

Hydrogen and oxygen are both gases. If two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom bind together, you get water.
There are different configurations that atoms like to bond into most often. Those bonds are the strongest and most stable bonds. That's why we have stable molecules and some unstable molecules. (Sometimes atoms bind together because they have available spaces for other atoms to bind to, but the bonds aren't very stable. Those molecules are easily broken apart). Things like oxygen and water are stable molecules. The atoms in water are very difficult to break apart. You might have heard people talking about hydrogen powered cars, and how they can get hydrogen from water, but it takes an immense amount of power to do it. It's because the hydrogen and oxygen atoms have a very strong bond that's really hard to break.

The atmosphere on earth billions of years ago would have been poisonous to humans. It has changed over time because the molecules joined together in different configurations to produce different elements.


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21 Jun 2014, 5:07 am

Fact of the matter is, that something DOES come of nothing.

You could say that the total amount of energy in the universe is the same. So that the Universe will expand, collapse, expand, collapse and continue for all eternity.

But studies show this is clearly not the case. The universe expands and continues expansion with a higher and higher speed, it accelerates, not only that, the acceleration goes faster and faster and there is no reason to believe that the acceleration will ever slow down.

If we have to take the recent scientific studies seriously, something DOES come of nothing.



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21 Jun 2014, 7:04 am

HarmonySeptember wrote:
Does [the universe] look like something that just got dropped, even though we help the trees live from breathing out carbon dioxide, and the trees help us live from giving off oxygen? Is it a coincidence that we have the ability to appreciate beauty and feel love? Etc...

Few people are willing to even consider your question since to do so could require at least a willingness to set aside the idea of "natural selection" or whatever else. Personally, I see no logical reason for believing creation and a clear understanding of all things must be mutually exclusive.


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HarmonySeptember
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21 Jun 2014, 8:45 am

khaoz wrote:
Why do you want to apply this question to the universe when you are unwilling to ask the same question about the God you believe in? And if you have asked the question about your God and found a satisfactory answer then why cannot you accept the answer that nonbelievers give about the univers because your explanation about the origin of you God is more irrational and implausible.


If I understand correctly, you are asking how God could come from nothing. There would have to be a living being that would defy this law. God has no beginning nor an end to his existence. You are probably thinking that this is too crazy to be true, but we are living, breathing creatures. I don't see that as chance.

Whenever a hurricane has hit a piece of empty land, when has it ever made a group of town houses? This has never happened. I feel like there is love and effort involved in the existence of everything. Could you please explain how creation is irrational to you?


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TheGoggles
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21 Jun 2014, 9:57 am

HarmonySeptember wrote:
Whenever a hurricane has hit a piece of empty land, when has it ever made a group of town houses? This has never happened. I feel like there is love and effort involved in the existence of everything. Could you please explain how creation is irrational to you?


That argument isn't relevant. Besides, if we're going to go that route, why does everyone on this site have a neurological disorder? What God would make his chosen-species so prone to something that cripples them for life through no fault of their own?



khaoz
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21 Jun 2014, 10:32 am

HarmonySeptember wrote:
khaoz wrote:
Why do you want to apply this question to the universe when you are unwilling to ask the same question about the God you believe in? And if you have asked the question about your God and found a satisfactory answer then why cannot you accept the answer that nonbelievers give about the univers because your explanation about the origin of you God is more irrational and implausible.


If I understand correctly, you are asking how God could come from nothing. There would have to be a living being that would defy this law. God has no beginning nor an end to his existence. You are probably thinking that this is too crazy to be true, but we are living, breathing creatures. I don't see that as chance.

Whenever a hurricane has hit a piece of empty land, when has it ever made a group of town houses? This has never happened. I feel like there is love and effort involved in the existence of everything. Could you please explain how creation is irrational to you?


I don't know how you can tell me that God has no beginning, nor an end to his existence and then turn around and ask how something (as in the universe) could come from nothing. If your God can have no beginning then why cannot something else have no beginning? You make no sense. You believe your God has no beginning because you were taught to believe that and because it was written in a book. You believe only what you want to believe. There is just as much possibility an apple pie could have no beginning as your God.. Do you even understand what the big bang is in the first place? You make no sense. You are writing your own fairy tale even in this forum.



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21 Jun 2014, 10:49 am

Quote:
How could something come from nothing?

Good question and one which the heathens have no answer for, except to get all upset that you should ask such a question.
:thumright:


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HarmonySeptember
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21 Jun 2014, 10:50 am

AutumnSylver wrote:
Something doesn't come from nothing. That's a popular misconception among christians.

Everything is made of atoms, and atoms have been around since the beginning of the universe. Depending on how the atoms are arranged, you get different molecules. Everything in the universe is made of molecules. For example, you have oxygen molecules made of two oxygen atoms floating around in the atmosphere. When UV radiation from the sun hits those molecules, it breaks the oxygen atoms apart, and they can join back together to form oxygen again, or three of them can join together to form ozone. (That's what forms the ozone layer, which is what protects us from the sun's radiation).

Hydrogen and oxygen are both gases. If two hydrogen atoms and one oxygen atom bind together, you get water.
There are different configurations that atoms like to bond into most often. Those bonds are the strongest and most stable bonds. That's why we have stable molecules and some unstable molecules. (Sometimes atoms bind together because they have available spaces for other atoms to bind to, but the bonds aren't very stable. Those molecules are easily broken apart). Things like oxygen and water are stable molecules. The atoms in water are very difficult to break apart. You might have heard people talking about hydrogen powered cars, and how they can get hydrogen from water, but it takes an immense amount of power to do it. It's because the hydrogen and oxygen atoms have a very strong bond that's really hard to break.

The atmosphere on earth billions of years ago would have been poisonous to humans. It has changed over time because the molecules joined together in different configurations to produce different elements.


If something doesn't come from nothing, then where did the atoms come from? To my point of view atoms are definitely something.

I found this article about the evolutionary theory of the atom. It seems so complex that I just can't understand it very well. I may try to read it again. Could someone try to explain this in other words?

http://www.hrsbstaff.ednet.ns.ca/jhgray ... 0Atoms.pdf


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HarmonySeptember
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21 Jun 2014, 11:33 am

Raptor wrote:
Quote:
How could something come from nothing?

Good question and one which the heathens have no answer for, except to get all upset that you should ask such a question.
:thumright:


Thank you! :)


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Jacoby
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21 Jun 2014, 12:44 pm

This is why I am agnostic, a passive one at that. There things that are impossible to know, what point is there pondering something that cannot be answered? Just makes my head hurt thinking about it.



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21 Jun 2014, 1:57 pm

HarmonySeptember wrote:
As a Christian, I feel like this question needs to be discussed on here instead of just stating "this is truth, and this is not". I will start:

If someone is holding a piece of paper, and he drops it, what are the chances of it becoming a paper airplane? None.

False analogy, and also actually wrong.

Quote:
Now apply this example to the universe. Does it look like something that just got dropped, even though we help the trees live from breathing out carbon dioxide, and the trees help us live from giving off oxygen? Is it a coincidence that we have the ability to appreciate beauty and feel love?

You have made a few mistakes. Firstly, plants do respire, so are perfectly capable of supplying carbon dioxide for themselves.

Appreciating beauty and feeling love can both be explained without appealing to a designer - and those explanations make a hell of a lot more sense, given how shoddy this design is. We have an appendix, which serves little useful cause other than randomly causing pain and death. We have vestigial hairs all over our bodies which we erect when we are cold, but they don't do anything! Parasitoids lay eggs inside other animals, and the young devour their host from the inside when they hatch. Cancer alone completely destroys any idea of intelligent design.

We do know that some events happen without a cause. I don't want to throw the word "quantum" in there all mystically, but there's no neat way of explaining it.

Having a discussion is all well and good, but it seems that the sorts of people who want to ask this question usually have very little knowledge of the world around them and show very little desire to think critically, and so are unable to contribute in a sensible fashion.



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21 Jun 2014, 2:08 pm

For this discussion to go anywhere, we first need a universally accepted definition of 'nothing' and an example of where this 'nothing' might exist in the Universe, past or present.

Something must have always existed, in some form or another.


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21 Jun 2014, 4:02 pm

Maybe 'something' (ie matter, and energy) always existed. And there was no starting point in which matter came from nothing. There was always something, and there was never just nothing.

Or maybe there was no 'before' matter existed because time itsself did not exist prior to the appearance of matter and energy.

Or maybe there actually was a diety.In the time prior to all surviving evidence we can observed today: a god happened by, snapped his finger, and 'something' (matter and energy) magically appeared were there was only a void before.

And then what have observed through evidence followed: the Big Bang, and 18 billion years of steller, chemical, and biological evolution. So there was a god, but he did things in an evolutionary fashion that bares no similarity to the tale told in Genesis.



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21 Jun 2014, 5:22 pm

Someone on WP wrote "it wouldnt even BE heaven if there were no dogs there."

But where does the Bible say anything about even humans going to heaven?