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Last samurai (2003) - final battle

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pawelk1986
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29 Aug 2014, 7:53 am

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XCtuZ-fDL2E[/youtube]

Thanks Gatling gun, samurai know what the modern "civilized" war, times of knights with swords are over: D

What did you think about "Boshin war"?



naturalplastic
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29 Aug 2014, 12:30 pm

The Boshin War was a brief civil war in Japan that resulted in the end of the rule by the Shoguns (dynastic dictators essentially), and rule being returned to the crowned emperor, but paradoxically also paving the way to democracy.

It was sparked by resentment against foriegn domination of Japan but the victors reversed their blind hatred of foreigners and became ardent progressives open to foreign trade and ideas (but remained against unequal treaties). Brought an end to feudalism, and local feudal authority, and help weld Japan into a modern unified nation.Along with that was the abolition of the Samurai as a class. Both sides (pro Shogun, and Royalists) were interested in modern western weaponry. I dont know if any real battle like that was ever fought (guys appointed like medeaval knights fighting guys dressed and armed like the U.S. Army under Grant ).

The real Boshin War is one subject. The Hollywood vehicle for Tom Cruise loosely based upon it is another subject. Dont know how much one resembles the other- but I suspect very little. Though the war did result in the abolition of the samurai as a class.

The movie is a highly romanticized fable about a culture clinging to its soul against foreign ideas and foreign domination. In the real war both sides had complex and changing mixes of xenophobic, and xenophilic ideas. So I doubt that is was really that simple.



pawelk1986
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29 Aug 2014, 1:55 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
The Boshin War was a brief civil war in Japan that resulted in the end of the rule by the Shoguns (dynastic dictators essentially), and rule being returned to the crowned emperor, but paradoxically also paving the way to democracy.

It was sparked by resentment against foriegn domination of Japan but the victors reversed their blind hatred of foreigners and became ardent progressives open to foreign trade and ideas (but remained against unequal treaties). Brought an end to feudalism, and local feudal authority, and help weld Japan into a modern unified nation.Along with that was the abolition of the Samurai as a class. Both sides (pro Shogun, and Royalists) were interested in modern western weaponry. I dont know if any real battle like that was ever fought (guys appointed like medeaval knights fighting guys dressed and armed like the U.S. Army under Grant ).

The real Boshin War is one subject. The Hollywood vehicle for Tom Cruise loosely based upon it is another subject. Dont know how much one resembles the other- but I suspect very little. Though the war did result in the abolition of the samurai as a class.

The movie is a highly romanticized fable about a culture clinging to its soul against foreign ideas and foreign domination. In the real war both sides had complex and changing mixes of xenophobic, and xenophilic ideas. So I doubt that is was really that simple.


Thank you, as to the Boshin War, it was "The Last Samurai" interested me in its subject. I even have the game "Total War: Shogun 2":-)

As for the Mr. Gatling "invention" , the heavy machine gun, named after him. Changed way of conducting of war, the war has ceased to be a gentleman skirmish in beautiful armor, now even a simple peasant can change the opponent made ​​regardless whether it is noble or low-born, in a bloody pulp in seconds, that is the beginning of the "civilized" mechanized war.



naturalplastic
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29 Aug 2014, 2:25 pm

pawelk1986 wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
The Boshin War was a brief civil war in Japan that resulted in the end of the rule by the Shoguns (dynastic dictators essentially), and rule being returned to the crowned emperor, but paradoxically also paving the way to democracy.

It was sparked by resentment against foriegn domination of Japan but the victors reversed their blind hatred of foreigners and became ardent progressives open to foreign trade and ideas (but remained against unequal treaties). Brought an end to feudalism, and local feudal authority, and help weld Japan into a modern unified nation.Along with that was the abolition of the Samurai as a class. Both sides (pro Shogun, and Royalists) were interested in modern western weaponry. I dont know if any real battle like that was ever fought (guys appointed like medeaval knights fighting guys dressed and armed like the U.S. Army under Grant ).

The real Boshin War is one subject. The Hollywood vehicle for Tom Cruise loosely based upon it is another subject. Dont know how much one resembles the other- but I suspect very little. Though the war did result in the abolition of the samurai as a class.

The movie is a highly romanticized fable about a culture clinging to its soul against foreign ideas and foreign domination. In the real war both sides had complex and changing mixes of xenophobic, and xenophilic ideas. So I doubt that is was really that simple.


Thank you, as to the Boshin War, it was "The Last Samurai" interested me in its subject. I even have the game "Total War: Shogun 2":-)

As for the Mr. Gatling "invention" , the heavy machine gun, named after him. Changed way of conducting of war, the war has ceased to be a gentleman skirmish in beautiful armor, now even a simple peasant can change the opponent made ​​regardless whether it is noble or low-born, in a bloody pulp in seconds, that is the beginning of the "civilized" mechanized war.


That transition happened LONG before the Gatling Gun.

Even before muzzle loading muskets.

The English peasant longbowmen slaughtered the French Knights at the Battle of Agincourt.

Though knights still dominated European warfare for sometime after that that was the beginning of the end of mounted armor. When gunpowder came into use they used big guns to knock down castle walls. And then later they figured out how to make hand held muzzle loading muskets- and the mounted knight was doomed. So amour was long gone for centuries before the gatling gun.

Though oddly enough-armor on soldiers has made a comeback in the 21st century in the American invasions of the middle east because of space age kevlar material they now put in foot soldier clothing.



pawelk1986
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29 Aug 2014, 3:06 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
pawelk1986 wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
The Boshin War was a brief civil war in Japan that resulted in the end of the rule by the Shoguns (dynastic dictators essentially), and rule being returned to the crowned emperor, but paradoxically also paving the way to democracy.

It was sparked by resentment against foriegn domination of Japan but the victors reversed their blind hatred of foreigners and became ardent progressives open to foreign trade and ideas (but remained against unequal treaties). Brought an end to feudalism, and local feudal authority, and help weld Japan into a modern unified nation.Along with that was the abolition of the Samurai as a class. Both sides (pro Shogun, and Royalists) were interested in modern western weaponry. I dont know if any real battle like that was ever fought (guys appointed like medeaval knights fighting guys dressed and armed like the U.S. Army under Grant ).

The real Boshin War is one subject. The Hollywood vehicle for Tom Cruise loosely based upon it is another subject. Dont know how much one resembles the other- but I suspect very little. Though the war did result in the abolition of the samurai as a class.

The movie is a highly romanticized fable about a culture clinging to its soul against foreign ideas and foreign domination. In the real war both sides had complex and changing mixes of xenophobic, and xenophilic ideas. So I doubt that is was really that simple.


Thank you, as to the Boshin War, it was "The Last Samurai" interested me in its subject. I even have the game "Total War: Shogun 2":-)

As for the Mr. Gatling "invention" , the heavy machine gun, named after him. Changed way of conducting of war, the war has ceased to be a gentleman skirmish in beautiful armor, now even a simple peasant can change the opponent made ​​regardless whether it is noble or low-born, in a bloody pulp in seconds, that is the beginning of the "civilized" mechanized war.


That transition happened LONG before the Gatling Gun.



Maybe but not in XIX century Japan, when Samurai was almost god like figures. After westernization of Japan. Samurai learned in hard way, that their times belong to past :D



drh1138
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29 Aug 2014, 3:53 pm

pawelk1986 wrote:
Maybe but not in XIX century Japan, when Samurai was almost god like figures. After westernization of Japan. Samurai learned in hard way, that their times belong to past :D


I think you're romanticizing them, to a degree. Not unlike European knights, they weren't particularly nice to commoners, and were themselves but cogs in the class machine to preserve feudal Japan.

In the Boshin era, they used guns every bit as much as everyone else.



Last edited by drh1138 on 30 Aug 2014, 3:58 am, edited 1 time in total.

naturalplastic
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29 Aug 2014, 4:38 pm

This^.

The film clip is niether historically accurate nor is it tactically believable.

The movie shows the samurai giving as good they got until the gatling guns start cranking.

In a real battle Tom Cruise and his friends would already have been decimated by the common infantry riflemen before they gatling guns were even deployed. The scene is just pure cinematic license to underscore the shock of modernity in the storyline of the movie-which isnt really an accurate retelling of Japanese history. They didnt really have samurai vs modern infantry battles like that. Both sides used guns.

An interesting aside: I just learned from googling that there were also sea engagements in the Boshin war. And the winning side used an ironclad bought from the US Navy named the CSS Stonewall that was originally a Confederate ship (it was built for the American South by France, siezed by the North at the end of our Civil War- then sold to Japan- then got used in THEIR civil war. And then remained in the Japanese navy until it was decommissioned in 1888. Small world!

Would the crew shout "banzai!", or would they use the Rebel Yell?