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thomas81
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05 Feb 2015, 10:49 pm

Since "taxation is theft" do you opt out of using roads and police services?

If not, please therefore qualify the assertion that "taxation is theft".


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MaxShock
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05 Feb 2015, 11:33 pm

I think you've taken things too literally. Taxing as a whole isn't theft, but taxing people and then using it for stupid things, and wasting what we're forced to give (which the U.S. government primarily does,) is shameful. There are also many other problems with tax abuse, that libertarians get fed up with and start feeling like it's theft.

Is it wrong to ask for a balanced budget, and want the government to stop wasting millions of dollars in tax money on things like bunny massages (yes, that exists.)?

There ARE forms of taxation that libertarians feel are unfair/unjust and want nothing to do with, and so they call those types of taxation theft. They don't mean taxation in general, because that would be ridiculous, since most libertarians are large believers in LARGE national defense budget (minus foreign interference.)

Please do your research. Maybe you can learn how libertarianism is a philosophy of different leanings (left, straight, and right) along the way, and the difference between a libertarian, Libertarian, and an anarchist as well.



Jacoby
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06 Feb 2015, 1:10 am

Non sequitur, why would you preclude yourself from using roads and utilizing police when necessary because you do not believe that someone has to right to take your money at gunpoint? It would be more of a dilemma if your money wasn't taken and you still utilized them. It's kind of like asking well if you don't support the Iraq War, why don't move to France? I dunno, I guess because I live here and it wasn't my personal choice to go war?



sly279
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06 Feb 2015, 2:44 am

funny I don't hear many complain about the gov wasting money on things but more about some of the taxed money going to welfare and how those people need to die. but apparently the gov can wast money on things like overspending then canceling the programs. o.O



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06 Feb 2015, 3:52 am

thomas81 wrote:
Since "taxation is theft" do you opt out of using roads and police services?

If not, please therefore qualify the assertion that "taxation is theft".


Even for those who do see taxation as theft still have to pay taxes for those roads and the cops so theres no reason for them not to use them.


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Dox47
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06 Feb 2015, 5:20 am

At this point, I can only conclude that the OP enjoys knocking over straw, given the consistently high fiber content of his threads.


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06 Feb 2015, 6:23 am

If I could opt out of taxes as well, and if opting out of the police means they don't come knocking on my door at all, so I'm free to fire my rifle and grow my little herb garden (for my home lab, seriously... :lol: ) - sure, I'll stop using government services.

Question for statists - if someone washes your car without you asking, and then steals some of your money, do you just accept it as a far trade, since you've gained some benefit from it?



thomas81
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06 Feb 2015, 10:40 am

MaxShock wrote:
I think you've taken things too literally. Taxing as a whole isn't theft, but taxing people and then using it for stupid things, and wasting what we're forced to give (which the U.S. government primarily does,) is shameful. There are also many other problems with tax abuse, that libertarians get fed up with and start feeling like it's theft.

Is it wrong to ask for a balanced budget, and want the government to stop wasting millions of dollars in tax money on things like bunny massages (yes, that exists.)?

There ARE forms of taxation that libertarians feel are unfair/unjust and want nothing to do with, and so they call those types of taxation theft. They don't mean taxation in general, because that would be ridiculous, since most libertarians are large believers in LARGE national defense budget (minus foreign interference.)

Please do your research. Maybe you can learn how libertarianism is a philosophy of different leanings (left, straight, and right) along the way, and the difference between a libertarian, Libertarian, and an anarchist as well.


there are also forms of taxation that socialists feel are unjust and unfair (arms spending, bankers bailouts etc). Being against unfair and unjust taxes are nothing to do with being libertarian. This question was directed at those who are against all forms of taxes, regardless of whether or not they form a utilitarian purpose for all members of society.


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thomas81
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06 Feb 2015, 10:43 am

Magneto wrote:

Question for statists - if someone washes your car without you asking, and then steals some of your money, do you just accept it as a far trade, since you've gained some benefit from it?


I call false analogy, since that never happens. What you do see happening quite a lot is ancaps moaning about the 'evils' of 'big gubbermint' while driving their huge SUVs with bumper stickers on government funded roads.

As for the analogy itself, it depends on the situation. If someone was starving and in far greater need of the money than me I probably wouldnt begrudge them to wash my car for money without my consultation since i'm not a miserable twat like that.


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06 Feb 2015, 10:50 am

thomas81 wrote:
Magneto wrote:

Question for statists - if someone washes your car without you asking, and then steals some of your money, do you just accept it as a far trade, since you've gained some benefit from it?


I call false analogy, since that never happens. What you do see happening quite a lot is ancaps moaning about the 'evils' of 'big gubbermint' while driving their huge SUVs with bumper stickers on government funded roads.

As for the analogy itself, it depends on the situation. If someone was starving and in far greater need of the money than me I probably wouldnt begrudge them to wash my car for money without my consultation since i'm not a miserable twat like that.


Well, what else can they do? They are not getting their money back either way, so they might as well use the roads since they partially paid for them. It's a different story if roads are paid for by specific, optional taxes in my opinion. If roads are paid for by a road tax at least you have the option of not paying it (and therefore not driving a car). Same with toll roads, you can choose not to drive there.



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06 Feb 2015, 11:00 am

The purist libertarians (and a few minarchists and anarchists) that I have met claim that infrastructure like roads should be privatized like some toll roads already are. The infrastructures themselves become the property of their owners and the owners may choose to charge a fee for use, if they wish to do so.

Others (like many minarchists and voluntarists), claim that certain infrastructure can be taxed to the citizens for short periods of time to accomplish the building of the infrastructure. This would be a little like the Bay Area counties which, in the 1930s, establish a corporation which raised extraordinary funds to build the Golden Gate Bridge and, when it was built and the expenses paid, reverted to part ownership of each county. This scheme makes large infrastructure affordable to citizens without the ongoing revenue generation for unrelated government projects.

But, me; I prefer the Golden Gate schemes. Short-term expenses which, aside from ongoing maintenance costs, are shared among those who choose to build the needed infrastructure, and then stop the extraordinary taxation.


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07 Feb 2015, 12:52 am

thomas81 wrote:
Magneto wrote:

Question for statists - if someone washes your car without you asking, and then steals some of your money, do you just accept it as a far trade, since you've gained some benefit from it?


I call false analogy, since that never happens.



You really should Google before making this kind of comment:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squeegee_man

Quote:
A squeegee man or squeegee woman, squeegee kid (Canada), squeegee punk (Montreal), squeegee merchant (London) or squeegee bandit[1] is a person who, washcloth and squeegee in hand, wipes windshields of cars stopped in traffic and then solicits money from drivers.

In New York City in the 1980s, the usual procedure would involve groups of squeegee men surrounding cars stopped in traffic. Although some merely provided a service, in other cases the windshield-washing would be carried out without asking, often perfunctorily, and with subsequent demands for payment, sometimes with added threats of smashing the car's windshield if their demands were not met.


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thomas81
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07 Feb 2015, 8:47 am

Dox47 wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
Magneto wrote:

Question for statists - if someone washes your car without you asking, and then steals some of your money, do you just accept it as a far trade, since you've gained some benefit from it?


I call false analogy, since that never happens.



You really should Google before making this kind of comment:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Squeegee_man

Quote:
A squeegee man or squeegee woman, squeegee kid (Canada), squeegee punk (Montreal), squeegee merchant (London) or squeegee bandit[1] is a person who, washcloth and squeegee in hand, wipes windshields of cars stopped in traffic and then solicits money from drivers.

In New York City in the 1980s, the usual procedure would involve groups of squeegee men surrounding cars stopped in traffic. Although some merely provided a service, in other cases the windshield-washing would be carried out without asking, often perfunctorily, and with subsequent demands for payment, sometimes with added threats of smashing the car's windshield if their demands were not met.


OH NO! WHAT AN EVIL BASTARD! TRYING TO MAKE MONEY TO SURVIVE! :roll:

Its laissez faire philosophy which maintains the existence of things like squeegee men in the first place.


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Dox47
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07 Feb 2015, 1:53 pm

thomas81 wrote:
OH NO! WHAT AN EVIL BASTARD! TRYING TO MAKE MONEY TO SURVIVE! :roll:

Its laissez faire philosophy which maintains the existence of things like squeegee men in the first place.


I love the way that you said something doesn't happen in order to claim that someone was using an unfair hypothetical and ignore their question, and when it was pointed out that the example in fact happened so often as to have a Wikipedia page devoted to it, you again ignore that in favor of making more unsupported accusations.

Is there a 'Worst Debater on WP' award of some kind? Perhaps there should be, this is hall of fame material here.


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thomas81
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07 Feb 2015, 4:27 pm

Dox47 wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
OH NO! WHAT AN EVIL BASTARD! TRYING TO MAKE MONEY TO SURVIVE! :roll:

Its laissez faire philosophy which maintains the existence of things like squeegee men in the first place.


I love the way that you said something doesn't happen in order to claim that someone was using an unfair hypothetical and ignore their question, and when it was pointed out that the example in fact happened so often as to have a Wikipedia page devoted to it, you again ignore that in favor of making more unsupported accusations.

Is there a 'Worst Debater on WP' award of some kind? Perhaps there should be, this is hall of fame material here.



my grievance isn't whether or not so called squeegee men exist, my contention is how RELEVANT they are to the broader context.

Moreover things like squeegee men aren't going to go away in a libertarian society. Quite the contrary, there will be more of them because the socially protective infrastucture that the state provides to the poorest will be gone. This is a slippery slope for you to bring up.

A ancap or market anarchist society would be a brutal brutal place. With a purveying dog eat dog attitude no-one would want to accept any responsibility for collective duties so eventually society would just cannibalise itself. A privatised police force that isn't accountable to voters would be able to literally get away with murder.


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mr_bigmouth_502
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07 Feb 2015, 4:38 pm

I'm a left-libertarian, I don't see taxation as theft. Everything has a price, and the government has to get its money from SOMEWHERE. People often think that libertarian = far-right wing, but that's not necessarily the case. I'm a left-libertarian because I believe strongly in individual liberties, but recognize the need for government social programs.