Really considering Gnosticism

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While I've indicated being an agnostic for quite a while (its ranged anywhere from 40% likelihood of no god to 80% depending on the day or mood) I realize that if I were to take a look at a particular branch of views and see them hugging reality the most effectively - some of the Valentinian books are truly amazing.

In reviewing the Tripartite Tractate again I see this:

- it explains a cosmology that actually shapes up to the same kind of multiverse/many big bang models being supported today. Doesn't need abrogations to the laws of physics.

- the adage 'we can't fathom God', rather than just being an age old bromide of organized religion, is very true in one specific sense. The entirety of what is - well beyond the boundaries of our small universe, ie. the entirety of the Plemora, has a certain sort of consciousness but its of a type so vast and deep that we could never relate to it from a framework of human consciousness. To us it would likely seem dead, sterile, entirely inorganic, mainly because looking at the small piece we can see in our own sense of time would suggest exactly that.

- it explains how we would be planted in a universe such as this, where 99.9999% of it is unneeded if it were here only to bring one planet and 'us' about (which it would debate that this isn't the case at all).

- The monist outlook speaks of the flaws and errors of our condition having no devil, not a struggle of good and evil but rather light and truth vs. naturally occurring absurdity that happens by detachment, lack of knowledge in the bigger picture, and what kind of self-forming logic comes around in that process. I have to say that I agree with that a lot, there may even be some people out there who like to fashion or think of themselves as evil, still I think they fall better under the canopy of taking evolutionary urges to a specialization where they think they're maximizing their own benefit.

- It explains why some people actively seek while some can't relate to it at all or would tag it as mental illness (admittedly though my biggest problem with this is from the standpoint of my own sense of earthbound justice and equity - we can't see the outside lines in from that standpoint and I really have my doubts that anything living here, under our conditions, is deserving of being cast into the outer darkness).


While I don't think I'd jump on this bandwagon all out today (will research and explore it though) perhaps in a few decades I might have a lot more of life figured out and I suppose that could go in either direction. Sill, I find a lot of urges and tendencies in myself to get to know something that my Catholic upbringing seems like it left me cold on, organized Christianity seems to leave me cold on it, most Abrahamic outlooks in fact, and then looking at the eastern religions I had a while where I was very interested in Buddhism but that fell short based on various impressions that I came to (though I did like the outlook on life a lot). Also, if there is an organized Gnostic church - I don't think I'd want to go there or join up because we're talking about something, ie. searching for truth, that best works when people are left to their own, yes they educate themselves with different writings or may even do their own analytical writings, but in the end organization by its very nature buries the keys to enlightening ones self - just as true in secular ideologies as religious and I have a feeling that Irenaeus when he wrote 'Dissertations on Heresy' in 180 AD while deciding on only four gospels for the bible was far more concerned with the longevity and strength of the 'Jesus saves' message to where he realized that anything that was too cerebral or libertine would have been highly corrosive to organized religion and thus the survival of the church (ie. a little bit of practical longevity over whole truth).

Theology makes committed decisions on the unknown that I find unnecessary and unwarranted.

... like the Big Bang.

A problem for me would be finding sources giving really clear and coherent presentations of any stream of non-neoGnosticism. There is a lot of material from the Manicheans and Mandeans, but what I have looked at has not really gotten me near an understanding. Too much liturgical, too little serious cosmology/theology.

All of current cosmology gives positive indication of the big bang and these are verifiable large pieces of data. There is no data on God.

My guess is most, if not all, people here know that you don't care about religion. Why do you insist on posting repeatedly about it?

For 'time pass' as we Indians like to say in corrupted English.

Does it piss you off that I find most religious proclamations without verifiable data and openly say so? I want the human species to think consistently logically and my objections to a lack in that direction disturbs me.

No. It pisses me off that you rarely add anything more to a discussion than some rude or completely useless comment. It is also rare that a posting of yours is more than 2 lines long which is mostly just something I find interesting. Honestly if you have nothing constructive to say, and it only serves to emotionally hurt others that have beliefs that don't in any way hurt you, shut up.

EDIT: Didn't mean to jack the thread btw. I find this a rather interesting take on things but don't really have anything special to add.... yet

I agree to the extent that a religion would tell people to modify our behavior in such a way that's destructive to others or that infringes on the rights of others via rules set in place that only have any positive value or meaning if there's a God and it happens to be that God's will. There are religions that are like that just as there are religions that aren't.

My statement that religion makes doctrinal proclamations empty of verification is a solid comment is of real value and requires a denial in solid terms. If you cannot see that it is a serious problem and can only reply in emotional terms you have a personal problem and I'm sorry for you.

Nevertheless, that your only remedy for my comments is to tell me to shut up is encouraging since there seems to be some grain of good sense within you crying to get out and silencing me is your solution to silencing that small steady voice of doubt within yourself that some things need re-thinking.

I am not religious so nothing you say about religion really matters to me, but others here are and your comments are more useful for hurting people than anything else. The general tone you use gives me the impression that you are nothing more than a well disguised troll. I have seen more then enough times where you make veiled claims of other peoples stupidity to come to the conclusion that I have had enough with this site, because it tolerates these type of statements, especially on a site dedicated to a group of people that tend to have self esteem problems.

At the end of the day I can be sure of one thing, I am not selfish enough to assault the feelings of people who are constantly attacked by a world that doesn't understand them so that I can feel good about showing how stupid I think their belief in god is.

Goodbye wrongplanet, I am done.

Sorry you take it so hard. My intention is not to hurt people but to point out the lacks in their beliefs. Growing up can be difficult but it's worth the struggle.

Lol, btw, no one's speaking for me - I'm indifferent on what kinds of inferences other people draw from their realities; I can find it informative and understand their points quite well but at the same time I know what sorts of things science covers and I know what kinds of things are purely intuitions, in either one direction of another.

Shame this thread got buried in a big public service announcement - I was hoping it'd be more focused but WTF, this is Wrongplanet and I know how this sort of thing typically works.

Life is only there when it is observed.

It is just an arrangement with a label.

If we can't comprehend it, it isn't really there.

Also:
bigger =/= better
more complex =/= better

There's nothing that can really be said to that, aside from maybe that this is one of the arrangements where arguments can be won on pure conviction (there's no way for anyone to win this in a factual sense but bullhead a topic to the point of brainwashing the other person - that is potential with some).

Interesting. I had the same thought about you.

Perhaps this need to constantly post the same thing over and over again is a sign that there is a little voice inside you that is whispering “maybe there is a God” and it is to that voice that you are speaking; not us.