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Aristophanes
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14 May 2016, 6:09 pm

I ran into the concept of Stoicism all the way back in grade school, and again in college, but never really paid much attention to it until recently. Oddly enough, it's a close approximation of my own viewpoint on things, and I have a feeling it will hit home with a few autistics here-- the first paragraph of the quote below sounds vaguely like autism even though it's describing a philosophy. Read the quote and tell me what you think, anyone else here feel like they were naturally born a Stoic?

From Wikipedia on Stoic ethics (the foundation of the philosophy):

Quote:
The ancient Stoics are often misunderstood because the terms they used pertained to different concepts in the past than they do today. The word "stoic" has come to mean "unemotional" or indifferent to pain, because Stoic ethics taught freedom from "passion" by following "reason". The Stoics did not seek to extinguish emotions; rather, they sought to transform them by a resolute "askēsis" that enables a person to develop clear judgment and inner calm.[20] Logic, reflection, and concentration were the methods of such self-discipline.

Borrowing from the Cynics, the foundation of Stoic ethics is that good lies in the state of the soul itself; in wisdom and self-control. Stoic ethics stressed the rule: "Follow where reason leads." One must therefore strive to be free of the passions, bearing in mind that the ancient meaning of "passion" was "anguish" or "suffering",[21] that is, "passively" reacting to external events, which is somewhat different from the modern use of the word. A distinction was made between pathos (plural pathe) which is normally translated as passion, propathos or instinctive reaction (e.g., turning pale and trembling when confronted by physical danger) and eupathos, which is the mark of the Stoic sage (sophos). The eupatheia are feelings that result from correct judgment in the same way as passions result from incorrect judgment.

The idea was to be free of suffering through apatheia (Greek: ἀπάθεια) or peace of mind (literally, "without passion"),[22] where peace of mind was understood in the ancient sense—being objective or having "clear judgment" and the maintenance of equanimity in the face of life's highs and lows.

For the Stoics, reason meant not only using logic, but also understanding the processes of nature—the logos, or universal reason, inherent in all things. Living according to reason and virtue, they held, is to live in harmony with the divine order of the universe, in recognition of the common reason and essential value of all people.



Grischa
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15 May 2016, 1:17 pm

Quote: "The word "stoic" has come to mean "unemotional" or indifferent to pain"

There are many articles about AS and pain tolerance. They write that people with AS have an average to above average pain tolerance, even though there are hypersensitive. How is that possible?
At least it doesn't count for me



Aristophanes
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15 May 2016, 1:23 pm

Grischa wrote:
Quote: "The word "stoic" has come to mean "unemotional" or indifferent to pain"

There are many articles about AS and pain tolerance. They write that people with AS have an average to above average pain tolerance, even though there are hypersensitive. How is that possible?
At least it doesn't count for me

One distinction I would make is that the stoic philosophy deals with emotional pain, not necessarily physical pain.



androbot01
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15 May 2016, 1:31 pm

Aristophanes wrote:
From Wikipedia on Stoic ethics (the foundation of the philosophy):
Quote:
... the foundation of Stoic ethics is that good lies in the state of the soul itself; in wisdom and self-control. Stoic ethics stressed the rule: "Follow where reason leads." One must therefore strive to be free of the passions, bearing in mind that the ancient meaning of "passion" was "anguish" or "suffering",[21] that is, "passively" reacting to external events, which is somewhat different from the modern use of the word. A distinction was made between pathos (plural pathe) which is normally translated as passion, propathos or instinctive reaction (e.g., turning pale and trembling when confronted by physical danger) and eupathos, which is the mark of the Stoic sage (sophos). The eupatheia are feelings that result from correct judgment in the same way as passions result from incorrect judgment.

Wisdom, self-control and reason are better guides than the passions of anguish, suffering, etc.

I think that goes for everyone. I don't know if I am naturally that way because I'm autistic, or if I came to be that way because I'm autistic. Or both, or neither. Not sure really.

A mixture of stoicism, zen, gnosticism and luddism works for me.



Shrapnel
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15 May 2016, 1:34 pm

Stoicism is deeply rooted in Japanese culture as well. It's a culture of restraint and resilience. Gaman, which means "enduring the seemingly unbearable with patience and dignity", both of which are in short supply here in the west.



Aristophanes
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15 May 2016, 1:45 pm

androbot01 wrote:
Aristophanes wrote:
From Wikipedia on Stoic ethics (the foundation of the philosophy):
Quote:
... the foundation of Stoic ethics is that good lies in the state of the soul itself; in wisdom and self-control. Stoic ethics stressed the rule: "Follow where reason leads." One must therefore strive to be free of the passions, bearing in mind that the ancient meaning of "passion" was "anguish" or "suffering",[21] that is, "passively" reacting to external events, which is somewhat different from the modern use of the word. A distinction was made between pathos (plural pathe) which is normally translated as passion, propathos or instinctive reaction (e.g., turning pale and trembling when confronted by physical danger) and eupathos, which is the mark of the Stoic sage (sophos). The eupatheia are feelings that result from correct judgment in the same way as passions result from incorrect judgment.

Wisdom, self-control and reason are better guides than the passions of anguish, suffering, etc.

I think that goes for everyone. I don't know if I am naturally that way because I'm autistic, or if I came to be that way because I'm autistic. Or both, or neither. Not sure really.

A mixture of stoicism, zen, gnosticism and luddism works for me.

...don't forget crazy roommates too, gotta have those to keep it interesting, lol.



Grischa
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15 May 2016, 1:57 pm

Aristophanes wrote:
Grischa wrote:
Quote: "The word "stoic" has come to mean "unemotional" or indifferent to pain"

There are many articles about AS and pain tolerance. They write that people with AS have an average to above average pain tolerance, even though there are hypersensitive. How is that possible?
At least it doesn't count for me

One distinction I would make is that the stoic philosophy deals with emotional pain, not necessarily physical pain.


OK, stoicism deals with emotional pain. But that's what I also mean: my bad psychic or emotional reactivity to external stimuli, including physical pain.
There are some writings about Stoicism on internet that also include buddhism. Here's mentioned one parable, this is it:
A man is shot with an arrow. That is pain. Then, a second arrow hits the same wound. That is his non acceptance of his pain, which is a secondary pain that he inflicts upon himself.
I guess I'll never be able to learn to avoid this secondary pain :( .



androbot01
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15 May 2016, 2:06 pm

Aristophanes wrote:
...don't forget crazy roommates too, gotta have those to keep it interesting, lol.

Thank God the new ones are calm. I'm still spending a lot of time at my mother's though. We are getting along okay.

I have a job interview on Friday for a peer support worker position. That would be so cool. I'm spending a lot of time on studying, but having a job like that would be such a step forward.

I forgot to mention aikido, the martial art that uses the opponent's energy against him/her. The principles can be used psychologically.



Aristophanes
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15 May 2016, 2:16 pm

androbot01 wrote:
Aristophanes wrote:
...don't forget crazy roommates too, gotta have those to keep it interesting, lol.

Thank God the new ones are calm. I'm still spending a lot of time at my mother's though. We are getting along okay.

I have a job interview on Friday for a peer support worker position. That would be so cool. I'm spending a lot of time on studying, but having a job like that would be such a step forward.

I forgot to mention aikido, the martial art that uses the opponent's energy against him/her. The principles can be used psychologically.

I'm glad things are taking a turn for the better, it sounds like you're finally finding a bit of stability. Keep up the good work Andro-- it's been a tough slog, but you're getting up the hill.



GGPViper
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15 May 2016, 3:29 pm

I can see how stoicism might appeal to those on the spectrum, not just from an ideological perspective, but also because stoicism may be a somewhat "natural" state of mind if one has alexithymia and/or and flat affect (which is apparently quite prevalent on the autistic spectrum).

I see some parallels between stoicism and the concepts of "renunciation" in the Dharmic religions (Sannyasa in Hinduism and Nekkhamma in Buddhism).

These traditions probably evolved independently of each other, however, as there was relatively little cultural exchange between Ancient Greece and India in the first millennium BC (Alexander briefly invaded India, but as I recall, he didn't drag Zeno along)...



GoonSquad
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20 May 2016, 12:22 pm

This website provides a good intro to applied Stoicism:
https://philosophy-of-cbt.com/2013/02/2 ... sciplines/

Stoicism involves mastery of 3 diciplines in order to live a reasonable and virtuous life.

Quote:

“The Discipline of Desire”, which has to do with acceptance of our fate
“The Discipline of Action”, which has to do with philanthropy or love of mankind
“The Discipline of Assent”, which has to do with mindfulness of our judgements


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cavernio
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20 May 2016, 12:30 pm

Shrapnel wrote:
Stoicism is deeply rooted in Japanese culture as well. It's a culture of restraint and resilience. Gaman, which means "enduring the seemingly unbearable with patience and dignity", both of which are in short supply here in the west.

Right up until the stance backfires for those that can't muster patience or dignity and they are now so ashamed that they kill themselves.


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GoonSquad
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20 May 2016, 12:51 pm

cavernio wrote:
Shrapnel wrote:
Stoicism is deeply rooted in Japanese culture as well. It's a culture of restraint and resilience. Gaman, which means "enduring the seemingly unbearable with patience and dignity", both of which are in short supply here in the west.

Right up until the stance backfires for those that can't muster patience or dignity and they are now so ashamed that they kill themselves.

Yeah, practice might seem really similar. But motives are completely different. Stoics are not EVER concerned with things like face-saving and personal honor as understood in the east.

Stoicism really isn't about enduring hardship. It is about being content with your lot no matter how unpleasant it might seem to an outside observer.

Here are a couple of chessnuts from the Enchiridion--
Don't seek to have events happen as you wish, but wish them to happen as they do happen, and all will be well with you.

Wealth consists not in having great possesions, but in having few wants.


easy to say, but very hard to actually do.


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