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TheSpectrum
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09 Nov 2016, 9:31 am

With the aftermath of the Brexit vote, and the pending inauguration for President Trump I must ask this:
"Do people hold contempt for the very democratic processes they claim are important, and if so why?"

The same pandering sanctimonious bunch in my Facebook timeline who preach about democracy, don't care about it being rigged when it's in their favour are often the first to criticise the process when it doesn't go there way, even if there is a landslide or 7-10 figure difference in voting majority - in other words, democracy in practice, with no margin for error on the nominated outcome!

I see people fed up with Brexit hating both first past the post, the British electoral system also, and it wouldn't surprise me if they didn't like proportional representation if their favoured decisions or parties got barely any seats.

So I must ask why one virtue signal is shone, only for it to turn into a siren when it doesn't fit the narrative.
Do people not know how important a vote is, and why it is wrong to wish the vote of someone else be tampered or removed? I get the feeling we live in an age where the new generations have been brainwashed into supporting the very things they claim to combat by the big corporations and political networks they also claim to detest. It comes as no surprise that those who feel threatened or remember how important democracy is have been clinging to their voting rights more than ever, and who is to stop them?

I guess more than anything this is a rant about democracy and why people seem to say they are pro democracy, then act pro dictatorship.


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Drake
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09 Nov 2016, 9:42 am

It's the same as everyone loves free speech until somebody uses it.



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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09 Nov 2016, 9:44 am

Simple answer. Some are sore losers who always want their way regardless of anyone else. They are childish.



kraftiekortie
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09 Nov 2016, 9:45 am

I love Democracy. I hate Trump.

I have a right to hate Trump.

I accept the results of the election---because I must.



TheSpectrum
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09 Nov 2016, 9:47 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
I love Democracy. I hate Trump.

I have a right to hate Trump.

I accept the results of the election---because I must.

Respectful stance.
I felt the same way about New Labour in the early 00's.


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Biscuitman
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09 Nov 2016, 10:13 am

Drake wrote:
It's the same as everyone loves free speech until somebody uses it.


this. Just look at the brexiteers reaction to the High Court legal verdict.

'We want democracy, just not that kind of democracy!'



TheSpectrum
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09 Nov 2016, 10:17 am

Biscuitman wrote:
Drake wrote:
It's the same as everyone loves free speech until somebody uses it.


this. Just look at the brexiteers reaction to the High Court legal verdict.

'We want democracy, just not that kind of democracy!'

You see attempting to circumvent a democratically voted choice for the country through clever use of the legal process as democracy? Biscuit man or straw man?


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Biscuitman
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09 Nov 2016, 10:26 am

TheSpectrum wrote:
Biscuitman wrote:
Drake wrote:
It's the same as everyone loves free speech until somebody uses it.


this. Just look at the brexiteers reaction to the High Court legal verdict.

'We want democracy, just not that kind of democracy!'

You see attempting to circumvent a democratically voted choice for the country through clever use of the legal process as democracy? Biscuit man or straw man?


No, I see UK law as important enough to follow and not something an PM or MP can just break because it suits them at the time. Dangerous precedents can be set otherwise

I don't want to get into all this as certain types of Brexiters just get angry and start name calling (see your post for an example) but there are enough remain MP's who now say they would vote Article 50 through that there would be no problem enacting it. Whether you like it or not It is the law that the HoC gets a vote on it, and that is due to the Tories choice of referendum back in 2015.



TheSpectrum
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09 Nov 2016, 10:28 am

Hmm.
Would it not be fair to say that such laws should be replaced or redacted in order to ensure the will of the people via a democratic process is met? Or no?


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Biscuitman
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09 Nov 2016, 10:37 am

TheSpectrum wrote:
Hmm.
Would it not be fair to say that such laws should be replaced or redacted in order to ensure the will of the people via a democratic process is met? Or no?


personally I don't think laws should be redacted after the event for anything if the process was all agreed & approved around those laws originally.

there is another argument that is 'what is the will of the people in this situation?'. With that I mean that there are so many details to leaving the EU that it is not just one thing. We need to leave but the detail of what terms we live under in the future should be agreed democratically in parliament. That is what was agreed and announced pre referendum, why should a minority be able to try and backtrack on that part now?



TheSpectrum
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09 Nov 2016, 10:44 am

Biscuitman wrote:
there is another argument that is 'what is the will of the people in this situation?'. With that I mean that there are so many details to leaving the EU that it is not just one thing. We need to leave but the detail of what terms we live under in the future should be agreed democratically in parliament. That is what was agreed and announced pre referendum, why should a minority be able to try and backtrack on that part now?

I assume you meant the handful of judges, and not the millions of voters.
I agree the terms need to be rightfully decided in parliament.


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Biscuitman
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09 Nov 2016, 10:49 am

TheSpectrum wrote:
Biscuitman wrote:
there is another argument that is 'what is the will of the people in this situation?'. With that I mean that there are so many details to leaving the EU that it is not just one thing. We need to leave but the detail of what terms we live under in the future should be agreed democratically in parliament. That is what was agreed and announced pre referendum, why should a minority be able to try and backtrack on that part now?

I assume you meant the handful of judges, and not the millions of voters.
I agree the terms need to be rightfully decided in parliament.


I think we are agreeing with each other then.

Sadly you have people like Farage and the nastier sections of the written press here trying to actually mislead people into believing that following UK law and following the pre agreed process is somehow outrageous (and unpatriotic, obv).



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09 Nov 2016, 12:05 pm

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_Paper_Bag_Test

I think I failed it. Or, I'm somewhere, in between. I'm noticing that your proifle pic doesn't look Anglo. So, I will write a little, about both sides, in the interest of comparing notes.

We're seeing conspicuous minorities, in new cars, houses, manicured lawns, with nouveau riche chips on their shoulders, looking down upon displaced locals.

Whites consider you the bigger quota cases, and your appearances of dignity seem like a taunt.

I'm hearing alot of sentiment, from these unassimilated foreigners, to the effect that they are socially conservative.

But, to leftists, and fenceriders, it still seems possible that you could get railroaded.

You believe you are prim and proper.

They believe they are sabotaging a Hitler figure or Mussolini.



funeralxempire
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09 Nov 2016, 12:09 pm

People don't like the sense of being held hostage by other people's poor judgment.


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friedmacguffins
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09 Nov 2016, 12:44 pm

funeralxempire wrote:
People don't like the sense of being held hostage by other people's poor judgment.


Are we talking about the thesis, antithesis, or synthesis, all of which are framed arguments, with many strings attached.

I'm reading Morals and Dogma, and this rubs me as the "general reactionary movement."



TheSpectrum
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09 Nov 2016, 12:54 pm

friedmacguffins wrote:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brown_Paper_Bag_Test

I think I failed it. Or, I'm somewhere, in between. I'm noticing that your proifle pic doesn't look Anglo. So, I will write a little, about both sides, in the interest of comparing notes.

We're seeing conspicuous minorities, in new cars, houses, manicured lawns, with nouveau riche chips on their shoulders, looking down upon displaced locals.

Whites consider you the bigger quota cases, and your appearances of dignity seem like a taunt.

I'm hearing alot of sentiment, from these unassimilated foreigners, to the effect that they are socially conservative.

But, to leftists, and fenceriders, it still seems possible that you could get railroaded.

You believe you are prim and proper.

They believe they are sabotaging a Hitler figure or Mussolini.

Interesting. I wasn't actually aware of the history of that test.
I used to be of a more tanned complexion as a kid but have likely gone paler due to staying in and up all night playing video games :lol: my family are of Brazilian and European descent and I was born to a British father and Brazilian mother in England, though it is likely he has anglo-saxon heritage as we live in what used to be a Roman, Saxon and Viking settlement over history.

Seeing as most of the Brazilian side of my family are black I guess I've never taken race into account, so tend to find it odd and annoying when the left are the ones constantly bringing it up. If I have a problem with someone it is their actions or ideas. In the case of Brexit, I look at the toll the way welfare is distributed as well as our immigration policies have hit the UK, as well as the financing of the EU and foreign aid. I don't look at who it's going to, but rather question why as a taxpayer my money should go towards funding these institutions that don't represent or benefit me yet benefit those who would (or more accurately put will never) return the favour. I also think people confuse race and culture. Not many I know have a problem with race if any. But mixing widely different cultures together is a bit like putting a 20th century socialist and 20th century capitalist jointly in charge of all our economic reform. It won't work, because at least one side is not willing to compromise their elements of their culture to make it work.


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