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jrjones9933
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22 Jan 2017, 10:56 am

Look at who uses it, and whom they intend to exclude by using it. Let's face it, Urban people are definitely not Real Americans to the people who use that partition to categorize people.

I know people will dispute the allegation, but I'd more like to hear from a Trump supporter who can admit that the term gets used in a lot of vile, racialized ways, and firmly reject it with more than a glib denial. Seriously, I want that so much it hurts. I may sound mean, but it cuts me to the bone that I have relatives who use the term to degrade my friends, and that most of the people in my old home state consider themselves Real Americans to the exclusion of anyone who behaves in a way they find weird.


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Jacoby
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22 Jan 2017, 11:25 am

You're the one giving it a racial connotation, is that how you define what a Real American is?



jrjones9933
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22 Jan 2017, 11:27 am

Jacoby wrote:
You're the one giving it a racial connotation, is that how you define what a Real American is?

Wrong. I'm interpreting what I hear in the plainest and most consistent way possible.


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Jacoby
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22 Jan 2017, 11:29 am

jrjones9933 wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
You're the one giving it a racial connotation, is that how you define what a Real American is?

Wrong. I'm interpreting what I hear in the plainest and most consistent way possible.




little did I know this was a white supremacist anthem :roll:



jrjones9933
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22 Jan 2017, 11:38 am

Jacoby wrote:


little did I know this was a white supremacist anthem :roll:

I give it my seal of approval. Not racist.

Edit: sad to see such a beautiful expression of patriotism ruined by the actions of racists who can't even understand the Hulkster


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techstepgenr8tion
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22 Jan 2017, 11:45 am

If I'm to understand what the two words mean when they're put together, in the most logically consistent fashion, it connotes that there is a correct way to understand the philosophy of what America is and stands for. I would have to guess that a 'real American' would be someone who firmly believes in and supports the Constitution, Bill of Rights, the three branch governmental system, and would politically fight against people who are working to either undermine elements of the Bill of Rights or working to replace our founding documents with something they seem more appropriate which would definitionally be a foreign system.

I'm really not for buzzwords like these because even used with the best of intent they play on atavisms and I've noticed, to the degree we've been running our politics and public discourse on atavisms lately, it's both an anti-intellectual habit to get into and it seems to trip anti-intellectual circuits in people in the broader sense. Also, whether true American liberal or racial identity movement, anyone can theoretically co-opt the same words and mean very different things.

My other problem with buzzwords - they have a way of tarring language use in the long term and breaking down word utility.


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Last edited by techstepgenr8tion on 22 Jan 2017, 11:51 am, edited 1 time in total.

jrjones9933
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22 Jan 2017, 11:50 am

techstepgenr8tion wrote:
If I'm to understand what the two words mean when they're put together, in the most logically consistent fashion, it connotes that there is a correct way to understand the philosophy of what America is and stands for. I would have to guess that a 'real American' would be someone who firmly believes in and supports the Constitution, Bill of Rights, the three branch governmental system, and would politically fight against people who are working to either undermine elements of the Bill of Rights or working to replace our founding documents with something they seem more appropriate which would definitionally be a foreign system.

I'm really not for buzzwords like these because even used with the best of intent they play on atavisms and I've noticed, to the degree we've been running our politics and public discourse on atavisms lately, it's both an anti-intellectual habit to get into and it seems to trip anti-intellectual circuits in people in the broader sense. Also, whether true American liberal or racial identity movement, anyone can co-opt the same words and mean very different things.

I mostly like your definition and hate none of it. I don't think people generally use it that way. I'm concerned about the usage of that term in the media or on Facebook or in conversations where people exclude certain groups typically identifiable by political persuasion, skin color, or place of residence. If we had a reasonable definition of the term, I wouldn't have started this thread!


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Jacoby
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22 Jan 2017, 12:00 pm

I think the point of the term dog whistle or code is silence and censor opposition, a 'real American' only has racial connotations if that is what is being implied which I don't believe it is. Lots of people define what they think a 'real American' is by their own definition; Hillary did and it hurt her a lot by calling half of Trump supporters deplorable, irredeemable, and unAmerican. I think when conservatives speak about 'real Americans' they're talking about other conservatives, if you're a traditionalist then you'd probably be more apt to see far left progressivism that is concentrated fabulously rich coastal cities or academia/media the privileged institutions in this country as something foreign.

You hear the flip side of this of course but usually it comes across as condescending and classist towards working and lower class whites who have been held in disdain by the aristocracy that has controlled this country since the time the first colonists step foot here. There has always been a game of divide and conquer played by the elites in this country, they have to keep the lower classes(relative to their .00000001%) at each others throats or else they might start realizing they share a common enemy. There really is an open acceptance of this racist classist depiction of white people that is never called out, a lot of TV is basically a modern day minstrel show in this regard and would never be tolerated with the stereotypical offensive depiction of any other race. The feeling is mutual, this open hatred and intolerance from the left needs to stop. They have to accept there a people who do not agree with them and that they cannot be forced to heel, it's never really about someone's personal right it seems but rather more about forcing people to stop believing what you don't like and to shove your own ideology down their throat like or not because they'd be irredeemable bigots otherwise according to their logic.



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22 Jan 2017, 12:10 pm

I believe that the term is often being used in a racial way often enough to discuss that aspect. I base that on how often avowed racists use it that way, and how similar the remarks of otherwise decent people sound. Minus the explicit racism, obviously.


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adifferentname
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22 Jan 2017, 12:23 pm

In what percentage of cases of the use of the phrase "real American/s" do you believe there is a racist context.

What are your thoughts on "Black Lives Matter"?



jrjones9933
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22 Jan 2017, 12:27 pm

adifferentname wrote:
In what percentage of cases of the use of the phrase "real American/s" do you believe there is a racist context.

What are your thoughts on "Black Lives Matter"?


Start your own thread if you want to discuss those issues with me. Have I failed to make it clear what I mean? Do you dispute that it is significant enough to discuss on its own?


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22 Jan 2017, 1:07 pm

jrjones9933 wrote:
I know people will dispute the allegation, but I'd more like to hear from a Trump supporter who can admit that the term gets used in a lot of vile, racialized ways, and firmly reject it with more than a glib denial. Seriously, I want that so much it hurts.


So, you created this thread in the hopes that someone with whom you disagree strongly will affirm your views? Good luck with that...


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jrjones9933
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22 Jan 2017, 1:12 pm

Dox47 wrote:
jrjones9933 wrote:
I know people will dispute the allegation, but I'd more like to hear from a Trump supporter who can admit that the term gets used in a lot of vile, racialized ways, and firmly reject it with more than a glib denial. Seriously, I want that so much it hurts.


So, you created this thread in the hopes that someone with whom you disagree strongly will affirm your views? Good luck with that...


I've provided a lot of context. This idea comes from what people say, not my fevered imaginings. Yes, I want someone who likes Trump to reject this racist notion in explicit terms. I realize that I'm asking a lot.


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Jacoby
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22 Jan 2017, 1:22 pm

Have you ever heard of a loaded question? Have you stopped beating your wife?



jrjones9933
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22 Jan 2017, 1:39 pm

I'm backing people into a corner by asking a Trump supporter to reject obvious, implicit racism? It does appear that I am. Sorry. I guess I won't get what I want out of this thread, after all. A big part of the discontent in his supporters seems to come from people like me asking them to stop saying things that sound racist, so I guess I should have expected it.

You can keep denying it all you want, but as long as the administration keeps using the favored language of open racists, I'll keep wondering why you would go to such lengths.


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Jacoby
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22 Jan 2017, 1:46 pm

Trump, his supporters, and his views are not racist so I don't feel the need to give credence to what you said and apologize for something that is not true to begin with.