President Obama: Would a WHITE wife have made a difference?
Campin_Cat
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/book-party/wp/2017/05/02/before-michelle-barack-obama-asked-another-woman-to-marry-him-then-politics-got-in-the-way/
There's a new book about President Obama's life, entitled: "Rising Star: The Making of Barack Obama", by by David J. Garrow. In it, Garrow details how President Obama had FIRST proposed marriage to a white woman (white and Japanese). Then, he started getting the idea that he needed a black wife, if he was going to accomplish his goals, in politics (mayor of Chicago, possibly governor, senator, and definitely president, as he felt it was his destiny).
It is in the personal realm that Garrow’s account is particularly revealing. He shares for the first time the story of a woman Obama lived with and loved in Chicago, in the years before he met Michelle, and whom he asked to marry him.
...and her pained, drawn-out relationship with Obama informs both his will to rise in politics and the trade-offs he deems necessary to do so.
...
She describes their time together as an isolating experience, “an island unto ourselves” in which Obama would “compartmentalize his work and home life.” She did not meet Jeremiah Wright, the pastor with a growing influence on Obama, and they rarely saw his professional colleagues socially. The friends they saw were often graduate students at the University of Chicago, where Jager was pursuing her doctorate. They traveled together to meet her family as well as his. Soon they began speaking of marriage.
...
In early 1987, when Obama was 25, she sensed a change. “He became. . . so very ambitious” very suddenly, she told Garrow. “I remember very clearly when this transformation happened, and I remember very specifically that by 1987, about a year into our relationship, he already had his sights on becoming president.”
...
Obama believed that he had a “calling,” Garrow writes, and in his case it was “coupled with a heightened awareness that to pursue it he had to fully identify as African American.”
Maraniss’s 2012 biography deftly describes Obama’s conscious evolution from a multicultural, internationalist self-perception toward a distinctly African American one, and Garrow puts this transition into an explicitly political context. For black politicians in Chicago, he writes, a non-African-American spouse could be a liability.
...
This publishing has brought-about alot of conversation----not only because it surprises some people that President Obama had proposed to someone BEFORE Mrs. Obama----but, also, as I'm sure you can imagine, it surprises some people (and angers, some), because the woman was white.
I'm thinking that most, here, will say it would NOT have mattered----which, quite frankly, was my OWN first thought; BUT, then I thought a little more.....
When I first heard-of this book, I thought: "Nah----no, way" (meaning, that it wouldn't've mattered if his wife would have been white)----BUT, then I got to thinking about the Fundies, and I'm thinking it MIGHT have mattered, to THEM. Then, when I thought about it, some more, I recalled the theory that I've had, about that it's quite possible that the way President Obama got elected, was because enough people thought: "NO WAY, would anybody with a brain, vote for him", and didn't go-out to vote; so, now I'm not so adamant, either way.
Also, the article (which is VERY long) talks about two senators who had a bit of a rough time, because of their inter-racial marriages (both, white/black).
My question to YOU, is: Do you think it could have, POSSIBLY, changed the outcome of the 2008 election, if then-Senator Barack Obama would have been married to a white woman?
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I use caps for emphasis----I'm NOT angry or shouting. I use caps like others use italics, underline, or bold.
"What we know is a drop; what we don't know, is an ocean." (Sir Isaac Newton)
I think it would.
Because America is very racist, like everyone in America seems racist and these things matter in a racially charge atmosphere which is what the US has.
I'm blaming all sides here not just any one 'colour' or 'color' as you spell it over the Atlantic.
I think the Black vote for Obama would have been far less than it was, because women.
That is based on observing race relations in the US as an outsider.
I think it may have decreased his vote in other demographics, but I'm unsure if some people are able to discuss them without being racist or as*holes.
Like the OP -at first glance - I thought Nawwww.
But maybe yes.
On one hand -though White America has made strides away from bigotry - there is one remaining hot button taboo. That being mixed marriage. As early as the gulf war White America was probably already ready to accept a Black president (Colin Powell was the Jackson,Tyler,Grant,Eisenhower, or MacArthur, of that time). But Whites generally dont like mixed marriages. And interestingly Black women dont like Black men who marry White women.
So having a White spouse might have brought out more latent bigotry among the 70 percent of the population that is White, and at the same time alienated the six percent of the population that is both Black and female (a small group, but a group that was central to his base) Might have tipped the scale the other way.
Would he have got the same response if he was married to a white woman?
I don't think he'd have managed half that under these alternative conditions.
I'm not meaning anything bad to black woman in america, I'm just sayin'.
Amaltheia
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As I understand American race politics, a drop of non-white blood makes you not-white, so Sheila Miyoshi Jager who is described as being of Dutch and Japanese ancestry, would count as Asian, not white.
I mean, Obama had a white American mother and a black Nigerian father and he counts as black.
Or am I getting this wrong?
Seriously, American attitudes to race really don't make much sense to me.
techstepgenr8tion
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I hope not, and it would have only mattered to me if it would have made him a better president somehow. That and, I suppose on the relationship level, it would be sad if he didn't feel the same way for Michelle that he did for the first woman that he wanted to propose to.
Aside from that - I'm starting to wonder if it's a good thing for non wing-nuts to be wrapping their minds around tribalism and intersectional politics. Tribalism might be fine in the wild for small-group survival, it's pretty destructive in something pushing toward global society. To the extent that we'd play games with history, wondering what would have been different if Obama's wife were white or white-ish or whether George W Bush had been married to an attractive black woman; a lot of this just seems like great ways to waste time, whittle our brains away, and avoid thinking about ways to solve real problems.
I'm not suggesting that we should avoid knowing societal problems are there, however this exercise seems to be jumping too far down the rabbit hole for my comfort in terms of validating this framework of ideas.
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ASPartOfMe
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Would it have helped him if instead of the traditional family image he played the field and bragged about his conquests or had an affair with an intern?
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The traditional family image of the Obama's absolutely helped him secure victory in 2012, and that, I believe (hope) transcends the racial issue. Had Obama been a Bill Clinton sexual predatory type of president, that surely would have cost him in the polls. He was held to a much higher standard than Bill Clinton.
I think we're hardwired to be tribal due to it's survival value, and unfortunately, today's culture continues to reinforce it, to the point of excess.
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androbot01
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I'm not sure I buy Garrow's premise that Obama chose his wife for only political reasons. There are usually a lot of aspects to making such a decision. He seems to have chosen wisely with Michelle as their marriage is one of the best I've seen (so far.)
As to the question of whether it would have impacted Obama's popularity if he was married to a white woman, I have no idea. It would depend on the woman and their relationship.
Campin_Cat
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As I understand American race politics, a drop of non-white blood makes you not-white, so Sheila Miyoshi Jager who is described as being of Dutch and Japanese ancestry, would count as Asian, not white.
I mean, Obama had a white American mother and a black Nigerian father and he counts as black.
Or am I getting this wrong?
Seriously, American attitudes to race really don't make much sense to me.
Yeah, that "one drop" "rule" only applies to people who have a black ancestor----basically, it doesn't matter how white they are (meaning, how many white ancestors, they have), if they've got even ONE black ancestor, they're considered black.
A Japanese person would be considered white----and then, there are some others who are considered white, like some Hispanics; but, even with some Hispanics, if they have, say, one black parent, they're considered black.
Arabs (or, the people others consider to be Arabs) are, basically, thought-of as brown.
People who are of a mixed-race heritage (black/white), to-this-day, have a bit of a rough time----neither do some blacks OR whites, like it----BUT, if they are white, mixed with something else, it doesn't seem to matter, as much.
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White female; age 59; diagnosed Aspie.
I use caps for emphasis----I'm NOT angry or shouting. I use caps like others use italics, underline, or bold.
"What we know is a drop; what we don't know, is an ocean." (Sir Isaac Newton)
Campin_Cat
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So having a White spouse might have brought out more latent bigotry among the 70 percent of the population that is White, and at the same time alienated the six percent of the population that is both Black and female (a small group, but a group that was central to his base) Might have tipped the scale the other way.
Yeah, the part I've underlined has always been really interesting to me, as I've always been interested in "the Psychology behind it" (in ANY situation / issue)----and, I think it adds another element to the discussion.....
It seems to make a difference, depending-on which sex, is which color, in the relationship. For instance, IME, if the man is white and the woman is black (still fairly rare; and, it seems that when this happens, the black woman is very educated), some black people seem to have the attitude, that she "married UP" (meaning, she increased her "value", on the social scale, or something----which I HATE, because it's bad enough that we've got White Supremacists, I don't want black people feeling that they're "less than", as well). However, if the man is BLACK and the woman is white, it seems like most black people HATE that, because, IME, their attitude seems to be that he was stolen from black women.
Then, according to some white peoples' thinking, IME, it seems like if a white man marries a black woman, the white people seem mostly concerned about how the children will be accepted----whereas, if a black man marries a white woman, she'll be brought, DOWN (meaning, she'll be lower-class / considered White Trash, or something).
I have often wondered if, at least, SOME of it has to do with what some still consider "the weaker sex" (women)? If a white man marries a black woman, that seems to be more okay with BOTH races----whereas, if a black man marries a white woman, that seems to be LESS okay, with BOTH races; but, for different reasons.
I've always been VERY fascinated by what seems to be these attitudes.....
_________________
White female; age 59; diagnosed Aspie.
I use caps for emphasis----I'm NOT angry or shouting. I use caps like others use italics, underline, or bold.
"What we know is a drop; what we don't know, is an ocean." (Sir Isaac Newton)
Campin_Cat
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I'm not suggesting that we should avoid knowing societal problems are there, however this exercise seems to be jumping too far down the rabbit hole for my comfort in terms of validating this framework of ideas.
Wow. You think discussing race relations is a waste of time, and not a real problem, and not valid? That's really sad, IMO----and, possibly, is an attitude held by too many and is inhibiting / stifling quicker growth.
I am VERY passionate about discussing race relations, because I want to LEARN----I want to learn how MY role can be improved, and I want to learn how the overall situation can be improved, from ALL angles, so I can help facilitate that.
I can hardly think of an issue where race relations is NOT a factor----it's a factor in education, housing, the economy, even Defense (because many black military members feel like second-class citizens, to-this-day----and, because the military is all about TEAM-work, can you imagine if someone didn't want to follow orders, because they didn't like the color of the person, giving them? People could DIE, because of that).
Please consider that this topic is MUCH more important, than how you see it.
_________________
White female; age 59; diagnosed Aspie.
I use caps for emphasis----I'm NOT angry or shouting. I use caps like others use italics, underline, or bold.
"What we know is a drop; what we don't know, is an ocean." (Sir Isaac Newton)
Conservatively speaking, the wife is a help meet, not intended to make a political difference. Race mixing is frowned-upon, as a matter of status, and the biological gender of Michelle Obama is under question.
We are told that it is unethical to accept orders, as a matter of racism, yet that orders can never be refused, when given by a reverse racist. Radical Reconstruction was a war crime, intended as a form of psychological torture.
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