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emp
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17 Apr 2006, 6:14 pm

Pope Urban II launched the first crusade in 1095. He ordered Christian crusaders to Jerusalem to kill the Muslims. Here is a quote from an account of the first crusade:

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"Our men had captured the walls and towers of the city and wonderful sights could be seen. Some of the merciful crusaders cut off the heads of their enemies; others shot them with arrows so that they fell from the towers of the city; other crusaders tortured the Moslems longer by throwing them into fires. Piles of heads, hands, and feet were littering the streets of the city. We had to step over bodies of men and horses in the streets. These were small matters compared to what happened in the Temple of Solomon, a place where religious services were normally held ... Here men rode in blood up to their knees and bridle reins. It was a just and splendid judgment of God that this place should be filled with the blood of unbelievers ... This day will be famous in all future ages ... it marks the justification of all Christianity and the humiliation of paganism."

(Conquest of Jerusalem 1099 Account of Raymond d'Aguiliers)



Odda
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17 Apr 2006, 6:38 pm

One of the ten commandments says: 'Thou shall not Murder.'

Because this was not one of God's wars, what these people did was sin, and looked down upon by God. The crusaders have long sinced been punished. Now lets leave it at that, lest we engage in yet another pointless argument.



parts
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17 Apr 2006, 8:20 pm

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Because this was not one of God's wars,


I didn't know God had wars can you name one? I agree many things have been done in the name of religion that were bad. But also remmember that that was another time and a somewhat different worldview.


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Didymus
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19 Apr 2006, 9:19 am

emp wrote:
Pope Urban II launched the first crusade in 1095. He ordered Christian crusaders to Jerusalem to kill the Muslims. Here is a quote from an account of the first crusade:

Quote:
"Our men had captured the walls and towers of the city and wonderful sights could be seen. Some of the merciful crusaders cut off the heads of their enemies; others shot them with arrows so that they fell from the towers of the city; other crusaders tortured the Moslems longer by throwing them into fires. Piles of heads, hands, and feet were littering the streets of the city. We had to step over bodies of men and horses in the streets. These were small matters compared to what happened in the Temple of Solomon, a place where religious services were normally held ... Here men rode in blood up to their knees and bridle reins. It was a just and splendid judgment of God that this place should be filled with the blood of unbelievers ... This day will be famous in all future ages ... it marks the justification of all Christianity and the humiliation of paganism."

(Conquest of Jerusalem 1099 Account of Raymond d'Aguiliers)


Hi there. :D

Just kinda wondering what your beef is with Christianity?

I mean, what motivates you to keep posting stuff like this about it?

I am not Catholic, but my Lutheran church follows many of the teachings of the Catholic Church. We do not believe in Papal authority because we feel that you cannot appoint a successor to St. Peter by committee. Yet many Popes are ones we can easily admire for their works and deeds.

Obvioulsy the quote you provided above is reflective of one of the darker times in Christian history under a Pope that was surely misguided. But to bash an entire religion because of the mistakes committed by a select group of its followers is not exactly reflective of good sense. It's representative of all or nothing thinking.

There are good and bad religious people just like there are good and bad irreligious people and ALL people do good and bad things. To blanket one group or another with a single label is pretty harsh.


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emp
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19 Apr 2006, 2:12 pm

Didymus wrote:
Just kinda wondering what your beef is with Christianity?

I mean, what motivates you to keep posting stuff like this about it?

You asked, so I shall answer!

Short answer: Christianity is immoral.

Long answer: I am a bit of a humanitarian, and I strongly believe that murder and rape are immoral, especially of babies and children, and that a text which encourages and incites it should not be sanctioned and revered. Christanity is also about manipulating the naive, gullible masses, and again I think this is immoral. Christianity and other religions have damaged society for far too long. Enough I say. Fortunately, Christanity is already dying, as evidenced by the massive loss of power it has experienced -- for example, in previous times Christians would murder me for the things I write, but these days they cannot get away with that. Another example, Christian pedophile priests are prosecuted and sent to jail, again they were able to get away with this in the past. It is very slowly dying as people wake up and general intelligence and awareness increases, and I am doing my bit to help drive another nail into its coffin. I welcome a time when the people of Earth have higher standards of morality and ethics -- a time when Christianity and the other religions are dead or massively corrected.

Didymus wrote:
There are good and bad religious people just like there are good and bad irreligious people and ALL people do good and bad things. To blanket one group or another with a single label is pretty harsh.

You are correct -- indeed it is true that there is some good in Christianity. It is not all bad. It is mostly bad. Christianity is like a serial killer and rapist who occasionally gives money to charity.

Didymus wrote:
I am not Catholic, but my Lutheran church...

You are a Lutheran? See, this is exactly what I am talking about. Martin Luther was a highly immoral man -- it is really quite perverse to be admiring him. Here is a quote from his writings:

Quote:
"What shall we Christians do with this rejected and condemned people, the Jews?... I shall give you my sincere advice: First, to set fire to their synagogues...in honor of our Lord and of Christendom, so that God might see that we are Christians.... I advise that their houses also be...destroyed..... I advise that their prayerbooks and Talmudic writings...be taken from them.... I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb...."

(from "On the Jews and Their Lies", 1543, by Martin Luther).


That is sick. I ask you, HOW can you consider yourself to be a moral person when you admire a person who writes such horrible things?

He is advocating cutting off the limb of a man (a jew) as a punishment for teaching!! Sick! How can you admire this man???

And the burning of their houses. Children live in those houses as well. So these families with their children are kicked out onto the street, all their possessions burned, and then how are they expected to survive? It is so sick.



Quatermass
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30 Apr 2006, 4:13 am

Actually, I read Terry Jones' book on the Crusades. Pope Urban was responding to a letter Alexius sent him, asking for help against the Turks. However, Urban wanted to bring the Holy Land under his own aegis, and so called for armies to march on Jerusalem and take it back from the so-called infidel, despite the fact that the native Christians were very well treated by the Turks (especially compared to the Arabs). Urban basically was a politician who wanted the Catholic Church to be the Church of the whole world.

Ironic, considering it is mainly the Crusades that have caused the whole mess we are in today, regarding terrorism by Islamic extremists...



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30 Apr 2006, 10:19 pm

Quatermass wrote:

Ironic, considering it is mainly the Crusades that have caused the whole mess we are in today, regarding terrorism by Islamic extremists...

The blame for that would mostly go on WW1.

I don't have any particular love for Christianity or anything... but the Muslims started it.