Book Review & Promotion: The Gentle Traditionalist
Greatshield17
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I just finished reading Roger Buck's The Gentle Traditionalist: A Catholic Fairy-tale from Ireland, and I'd figured I might review and promote it here.
Geoffrey Peter Luxworthy or GPL, (Gentle Perplexed Liberal) a young Englishman, has fallen head-over-heels in love with Anna an English woman of Irish decent that he ran into at Cambridge on Valentine's day. GPL really loves this woman and wants to marry her, but there is just one problem, she's a New Age Nut! Anna is obsessed with the New Age Movement, she's constantly traveling around to these obscure New Age sites and babbling about things the GPL struggles to wrap his mind around. As things continue to progress however, Anna suddenly starts to become calmer, and not as obsessed in the past. Than one day, out of the blue, Anna reveals that she wants to become a nun, no, not a New Age Nun, A Catholic Nun! And not just a Catholic Nun, A full-blown, habit-wearing, Traditional Catholic Nun, attending the Old Latin Mass!! !
GPL was absolutely stunned! Then things get worse, after searching around for a Traditional convent moves to Monaghan, Ireland. Anna talks a lot about the atrocities committed against the Irish by Protestant England and how the Catholic Church has all these enemies, the whole thing sounds like an insane conspiracy theory!
GPL is confused, and very troubled, but he still loves Anna, and despite all the TradCat nuttiness, Anna still had a wonderful and attractive personality. GPL makes plans to propose to Anna on Valentine's day, their anniversary, he hopes that Anna's Crazy Catholic stuff can be put to the side, that she would just leave at Church and they enjoy their happily-ever-after at home. But on Valentine's day morning Anna refuses GPL's proposal, says she's looking at a possible Traditional Convent in Dublin and speeds-off, leaving GPL to wonder the Streets of Monaghan alone. As GPL walks around the empty streets, he suddenly comes across this odd sign on a door which reads:
Perplexed, GPL enters the door and climbs a flight of steps to a fireplace-warmed room filled with odd, old-fashioned ornaments and books. There, GPL meets on old man with a booming voice by the name of Gilbert Tracey or GT (Gentle Traditionalist) and explains his problems to him. Thus begins the main focus of this novel, a Socratic dialogue between GPL and GT punctuated with a whole host of wacky characters coming and going, from the New Age couple No Name and Bee Nice, to a Carlist Colonel delivering Fish & Chips for lunch! It all leaves GPL searching around the room, looking for the hidden camera, certain he's on some prank reality show! Is GPL on a prank reality show? Who is GT? Will GPL and Anna finally make-up and marry? Read the book and find out!
The Gentle Traditionalist is a brilliant book for explaining the Traditional Catholic Movement, and its views and ideals to outsiders. It also does a great helping Traditional Catholics, who have not reflected that much, on the big picture, or have a hard time explaining it to others. (And I'm including myself in this part.) As I mentioned above, most of The Gentle Traditionalist is written as a Socratic dialogue between GT and GPL however, there is still your standard story flow that gels nicely with the dialogue. While most of the story takes place in GT's room, there are a few literary elements here or there, and at least one nice twist in the overall story. The only flaws I found, were a few typos here and there, including one part where it says GPL is speaking, when both the words of the dialogue and the context make it obvious that GT is supposed to speaking here. Another flaw in the book is that there are a few claims made in the book, that not every Traditional Catholic will agree with.
Overall, I give Roger Buck's The Gentle Traditionalist an 8.5/10!
Gentle Traditionalist is available on Amazon.com here: The Gentle Traditionalist: A Catholic Fairy-tale from Ireland
See a free sample of chapter one on Roger Buck's website here: The Gentle Traditionalist-Chapter One
Check out this recent radio interview of Roger Buck where he tells his conversion story here: Celtic Connections: New Age Practitioner to Catholicism
Finally, there's Roger Buck's Youtube Channel here: Roger Buck's Youtube Channel
techstepgenr8tion
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I'm glad you found the book to your liking.
I think my own trouble with fiction, even philosophic fiction, is that it really takes an author with immense self-control to actually know all of the topics under discussion between their characters, map that on to realistic interaction, make the strongest argument for them possible, and while you read a non-fiction book on politics, history of religion, or something like that and tell whether the author blew certain key facts or not there tends to be a lot that has to be given on tolerance to a fiction author. That said I actually am looking to get into it now, just picked up The Glass Bead Game by Hess and probably will be reading Dostoevsky and Camus relatively soon but I have to keep in mind the periods they were written in, that the authors had a point that they were getting at, and that even at their stature they may have distortions to their lenses even if for nothing more than states of knowledge at their time of writing.
As for my own criticism of new age - it tends to be a lot of flashy pieces and parts that people have a difficult time making a cohesive whole out of and often enough worse, make people feel like they're better than other people for having what they have. It's entertaining when times are good but it doesn't amount to much in hard times and I can't imagine most people in a post societal collapse or civil war type of world huddling around Shirley Maclaine, The Secret, or channeled mediumship books for strength. It's not to say that there aren't systems and traditions that delve into similar contents much more seriously, just that yeah - new age is a bit like the Dollar Store cousin.
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Greatshield17
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Yeah, understanding one's opponents is very important and very difficult, I have a huge list on Amazon.ca of books written by opponents of my beliefs in order to make sure I understand them well if I ever get in an argument with them. However, I probably won't be ordering them for a very longtime. I used to debate Protestants on another online forum, and one of key things I've taken away from that experience is, I really overthinks things and bite off more than I can chew. I've decided that's better to work on internalizing my Faith, and developing a deeper prayer life, than trying to score points in a debate. (Not that I'm going to give up debating completely, but debates aren't just about arguments and ideas, they're about people too, I've got make sure I'm able too both think clearly under the pressure, and set a good example to others.)
Yeah, the most obvious problem with the New Age Movement is its minimum commitment spirituality and in ability address tough issues seriously. By the way, have you ever heard of Valentin Tomberg? I ask this because, you said in the past that you were a Hermeticist, and Valentin Tomberg (whose writings, the author of this book is a fan of) was a Christian Hermeticist. I've actually heard a few positive things about Christian Hermeticism from fellow Traditional Catholics, (Although I've also heard that Hermeticism is a very loose term, which makes sense considering Hermeticism started out as a syncretism of various Greek philosophies and theologies.) I may explore at the very least, the writings of Valentin Tomberg.
techstepgenr8tion
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Really odd timing you'd bring that up. I actually started going back through that again around the middle of last month.
Yes, Meditations on the Tarot has historically been one of my favorite books. He seems to have been the type of 20th century thinker that you'd find in the likes of Karl Barth, C.S. Lewis, etc. just that his attention was turned - especially in MOTT - toward truing up the differences between Roman Catholicism, the history of the saints and theologians, and the French (and Russian) Martinist tradition.
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Greatshield17
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Yes, Meditations on the Tarot has historically been one of my favorite books. He seems to have been the type of 20th century thinker that you'd find in the likes of Karl Barth, C.S. Lewis, etc. just that his attention was turned - especially in MOTT - toward truing up the differences between Roman Catholicism, the history of the saints and theologians, and the French (and Russian) Martinist tradition.
Interesting, I'm thinking of getting Lazarus Come forth! it's the book that Roger Buck recommends in his appendix,-he's got an appendix at the end of this book with a list of recommended books for the audience- however I don't think I'll be able to get to it for longtime, I have a huge list of books I want to read, although that book will be near the top of that list.
Funny story, before my reversion to Catholicism, I used to pride myself on being detached from money, yet I had quite a thick bank account. After my reversion, my bank account took a huge nose-dive as I started spending money right and left, on books and other Catholic-related material, NOW I am detached from money, or at least more than I was in the past.
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Don't bother with me, I'm just a narrow-minded bigot who does nothing but "proselytize" not because I actually love the Faith, because no one loves the Faith, we're just "using it to justify our bigotry." If you see any thread by me on here that isn't "proselytizing," I can't explain that because that's obviously impossible; because again, all I've ever done on here is "proselytize."
WP is the 2nd worst forum site I have ever been on.
techstepgenr8tion
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A couple things on Meditations on the Tarot, first that it was his end-of-life magnum opus that he set to be published only after his death (1973) and per his request it was published anonymously - so both the original and current addition are by 'Uknown Author translated by Robert Powell'. I actually found out about this book because, early to mid 2013, I was reading a fair amount of Anthroposophy (Rudolph Steiner's core books, Sergei O. Prokofieff, Robert Powell, etc.) and Robert Powell had a chapter early in Sophia Teachings that gave his story on how someone had told him about Valentin's transcript and recommended that he do the translating.
Sophia Teachings was actually a neat book for me on several levels, first that I'd wondered how things like Proverbs 8 and the Book of Wisdom didn't push people to ask some pretty big questions about the divine feminine and whether something that was authentic to the bible wasn't getting hand-waved out for purely doctrinal reasons. The other part of it of course were the kinds of experiences I was having in 2013, which seemed to peak around the time when I read Manly P Hall's Secret Teachings of All Ages and got to the chapter on the Bembine or Isiac Tablet. At the risk of saying something that might sound really heretical (although probably not much worse than Jacob Boehme's thoughts) I do think that a lot of the Mary sightings or encounters are palpably real but they're in line with something much older and broader than Jesus's mother or even any of the wisdom goddesses who were revered through the region at the time. There was some attempt to address her adequately in The Metamorphoses of Apuleius and while I don't remember Carl Jung saying anything explicit about the cosmic feminine I'm sure he'd have a lot to say about Isis, Sophia, Yahweh Elohim (eg. Binah), Mary, etc. being a part of a grand archetype.
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Greatshield17
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For me, as a Marian devotee, I consider view Mary as divine as actually taking away from her glory. For me, I like viewing Mary as the Immaculately Conceived New Eve, she is humanity at its absolute best, humanity as God originally intended it. (Albeit Christ, the New Adam, is this too, but He's also fully God as well as fully human, so He's special.) That's my take on Mary, although your talking about these apparitions which is something much more complex.
This does touch slightly on another question I have for you regarding Hermeticism, what is the Hermeticist view regarding the relationship between the spiritual and the physical? I'm asking this to make sure I don't get any misconceptions regarding this.
Sorry if the gap in me responding to this was in anyway awkward, I had college the other day and a few errands afterward which prevented me from having time to respond.
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Don't bother with me, I'm just a narrow-minded bigot who does nothing but "proselytize" not because I actually love the Faith, because no one loves the Faith, we're just "using it to justify our bigotry." If you see any thread by me on here that isn't "proselytizing," I can't explain that because that's obviously impossible; because again, all I've ever done on here is "proselytize."
WP is the 2nd worst forum site I have ever been on.
techstepgenr8tion
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That's fair and TBH I really wouldn't classify as Christian anymore mainly because my sense of what it means doesn't really sit in the structure of the church and in a lot of ways broadened beyond the bible to where I had to reinterpret my share of what are often considered non-negotiable tenets. For example the more research I did I increasingly found myself of the persuasion that the Christ of John and Paul was what would commonly be referred to as Adam Kadmon (ie. archetypal man or the collective soul of humanity) and the Blessed Virgin is possibly something even more ancient. I know in my own studies of Kabbalah/Qabalah the IHVH maps on to - in this order - Chokmah (Wisdom), Binah ( Understanding), Tiphareth (Beauty), and Malkuth (Kingdom). The I and V are said to be masculine and the two H's are said to be the greater and lesser feminine. The more I looked at that the more it sized up right to me that Jesus, assuming his earthly birth, would fit the Vav (Tiphareth), the Logos of John 1 would fit the Yod (ie. Christ on the higher cusp), Mary would be the final Heh, the second Heh is in an interesting place in that it, Chokmah, and Kether constitute the supernal triad (Macroprosopus) and the sphere of Binah is the only sphere in the supernals that actually relates back to a planet - ie. Saturn. That gets interesting because people can just as quickly put Isis or Sophia up there as a higher cusp of Mary as they can place the Hindu goddess Kali or similar western dark goddess archetypes such as Isis's sister Nepthys. The interesting think about Binah is it's both Aima (the fertile mother) and Ama (the sterile mother) and that seems to also symbolically represent both the white and black goddesses as, in some ways two sides of the same coin.
It's quite a wide field and you can have people who are abstractly Christian (ie. Rosicrucian, Martinist, etc) at one end and then you can also have groups or individuals who tend more toward pagan symbols but would likely find common agreement in the idea that the old polytheistic systems are in a sense handled as something more pantheistic being represented in different phases or aspects.
I think the strongest marking difference you'll see between Christianity and more Hermetic forms of Christianity is that it's a much more philosophic approach, aspects of God double as natural dynamics, and rather than having a boundary terror about the idea of foreign gods they have little trouble throwing a fair amount of the Egyptian and other pantheons into their work because they see these pantheons (or at a minimum key players like Osiris, Isis, Horus, Thoth, etc.) as being contiguous with the same ideas. After reading several dozen quite heavy books around it in the past four years the best way I could explain what it feels like to me (ie. the spirit of the cosmology) would be thinking of the universe as if it were a big conscious network with certain nodes and juncture points, and those juncture point or plexi would fit in well with the concepts of gods, goddesses, archangels, etc..
A more traditionally pagan approach would be to bounce around more with the deities related to the planetary spheres that they want to work in, a more Judao-Christian approach would be to invoke the God name of that sphere and/or the particular archangel of that sphere. I tend to do both archangels and gods/goddesses because as far as I know the archangels seems to be very high-level beings with angels below them and they sub-let their work to different specialists (you could think of an archangel a bit like an odd combination of both lobby receptionist and CEO or President delegating work downward). In a way gods and goddesses feel a bit like they'd be in a middle management-ish place but also a bit more free agent rather than being in sharp hierarchical profile the way the angels array from the archangels.
One book that I thought was pretty strong on explaining Hermetic Qabalah was Dion Fortune's Mystical Qabalah, and I say that because I really like how well she brought in both the Judao-Christian aspects as well as the Greek and Egyptian aspects while also describing and detailing the spheres as if she were an engineer writing the book to explain the mechanics of these spheres to fellow engineers. While it's true that she came from the Golden Dawn tradition and went on to found her school (Servants of the Light) without having studied, as far as I know, traditional Jewish Kabbalah I also do have to admit that one of the first books I read on the topic was Aryeh Kaplan's exegesis on the Sefir Yetzirah which truthfully bored me because it seemed like it was just a load of comparative details on what different formulations of the Tree of Life looked like, how different forms of gematria and notorikon worked, or even how to make a golem - none of which is the sort of 'what is it' cosmology conversation that I wanted (and got from Fortune)
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techstepgenr8tion
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Greatshield17
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I think the strongest marking difference you'll see between Christianity and more Hermetic forms of Christianity is that it's a much more philosophic approach, aspects of God double as natural dynamics, and rather than having a boundary terror about the idea of foreign gods they have little trouble throwing a fair amount of the Egyptian and other pantheons into their work because they see these pantheons (or at a minimum key players like Osiris, Isis, Horus, Thoth, etc.) as being contiguous with the same ideas. After reading several dozen quite heavy books around it in the past four years the best way I could explain what it feels like to me (ie. the spirit of the cosmology) would be thinking of the universe as if it were a big conscious network with certain nodes and juncture points, and those juncture point or plexi would fit in well with the concepts of gods, goddesses, archangels, etc..
A more traditionally pagan approach would be to bounce around more with the deities related to the planetary spheres that they want to work in, a more Judao-Christian approach would be to invoke the God name of that sphere and/or the particular archangel of that sphere. I tend to do both archangels and gods/goddesses because as far as I know the archangels seems to be very high-level beings with angels below them and they sub-let their work to different specialists (you could think of an archangel a bit like an odd combination of both lobby receptionist and CEO or President delegating work downward). In a way gods and goddesses feel a bit like they'd be in a middle management-ish place but also a bit more free agent rather than being in sharp hierarchical profile the way the angels array from the archangels.
I was speaking more in terms of the relationship between the body and the soul, how would view the relationship between the body and the soul? However what you said is quite interesting and touches on quite a few things I, and other Traditional Catholics have talked about, and is related to various concerns we have concerning the modern world such as viewing the universe as a machine and everything as mechanical vs viewing the universe as an organism (though not necessarily a conscious one) and everything as organic.
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Don't bother with me, I'm just a narrow-minded bigot who does nothing but "proselytize" not because I actually love the Faith, because no one loves the Faith, we're just "using it to justify our bigotry." If you see any thread by me on here that isn't "proselytizing," I can't explain that because that's obviously impossible; because again, all I've ever done on here is "proselytize."
WP is the 2nd worst forum site I have ever been on.
techstepgenr8tion
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Well, as far as body, soul, and spirit this is one of those areas where I'm somewhat uncomfortable as to whether anyone has any idea what they're talking about.
To tell you what I keep hearing from various sources you have something like this: your mind is generally operating in and through the brain, however there is something all the way at the back, which is you as well, but it's much larger in stature and would remind you of something like a being of angelic flame. Some people call this the higher self, some people call this the first layer of the 'superconscious', others call this the capital 'E' Ego, Jung called meeting this being Individuation, and it's the same light being who John of the Cross and Teresa of Avila were writing about their contacts with (it shows up strongly in John of the Cross's poetry). I don't exactly know where the next particular terminology came in to view historically but from the Hermetic Golden Dawn forward (through all the diaspora orders as well as Thelema and Crowley) it's been called the Holy Guardian Angel, and working toward contact with it is working toward an experience often referred in in occult/esoteric circles as 'Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel'.
AMORC (Rosicrucian Order) suggests that the perfect, untarnishable, and really permanently 'unfallen' part of yourself is shaping and perfecting a being in something like a bay or inlet within its own structure which is being refined of a still subtle but yet grosser matter. They refer to that being that is getting shaped as the Soul Personality and to the higher element as the Human Soul. As far as I can tell the Soul Personality (getting sculpted) and the Holy Guardian Angel, higher self, etc. are the same thing and that matches, I think, the sort of calm, blissful, and impartial being that people experience themselves as when they go into an NDE (near death experience).
I've been in Builders of the Adytum for as long as I've been in AMORC, I actually like the monographs and knowledge in their system a bit more however Paul Foster Case and Ann Davies tend to stick with the tarot and the Tree of Life and focus a bit less on the particulars of that question whereas AMORC will give you that, almost front and center, but without a lot of supporting context. I know it might be confusing if I keep trying to draw in references to the Tree of Life because if your not familiar with it it might not mean much, just know that there are three triads and these I think do accurately represent what we're discussing - the top triad being something like the unfallen trinity within a person, the Soul Personality being what's getting shaped, and of course the third triad is the personality we experience with the last sphere at the bottom - not having a triad - represents the physical world and human body.
I also have to be careful if I use the word 'unfallen' (aside from it sounding like an Endless Space 2 reference) because to read the Corpus Hermeticum, Kore Kosmou, Divine Pymander, or anything like that you get the sense that it's not a story of sin and salvation but rather free energies roaming the universe, becoming fascinated by what they see below in the form of planets, the planets and materiality taking even more fascination with them, and the two become bound together and those original free-floating energies get so lost in play that they forget that they're playing. In a lot of ways it reminds me of the doctrine that's behind Ishtar's descent through the seven gates into the underworld (Manly P Hall covers this one really well) where with every gate, representing the spheres of the seven planets or seven Elohim, she has to take off part of her vestiture of power until she's in the underworld, before her sister Ereshkegal naked and powerless but none the less there to save her lover Tamuz, Ereshkegal kills her immediately, she's resurrected, and returns back through the gates with Tamuz.
That story represents an ancient doctrine that we were celestial beings who, as we descended that staircase of seven steps or seven spheres we received 'gifts' which were really burdens or tests related to that particular planet (ie. from highest to nearest earth: Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, Sun, Venus, Mercury, Moon), and as we accrue more of these gifts as we go down through the planets we become increasingly drunken and forgetful, where after we've passed the moon and are in Earth's orbit we're staggering and barely conscious, and by the time we're incarnate we're completely ignorant and without knowledge of who we are or where we came from. Obviously this is ancient cosmology, it doesn't at all fit what we know of the solar system, and it's part of why I rarely take these stories too objectively other than paying attention to the core principles or ideas that they seem to be getting at.
I don't know if that helps any but I would say that I can't speak for all Hermetic traditions that are out there as I don't think they have a completely unified take on soul, spirit, and matter (aside from what seem to be repeating tenets which I mentioned above), and something that's much closer to traditional Christianity, like Martinism for example, might have a fair amount of divergence to what you might find if you were in Crowley's A.'.A.'. and studying the Tree of Life (with The Beast as Chokmah and Babalon as Binah). The most important concepts will remain the same but different traditions will have different emphasis on different thing and some will have more mainstream Christianity and core tenets from that woven in whereas others will be more strictly philosophic and synchretic in their approach to the Kabbalah/Qabalah and ascent of the Tree of Life, carrying out the Great Work within oneself, etc.
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Greatshield17
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To tell you what I keep hearing from various sources you have something like this: your mind is generally operating in and through the brain, however there is something all the way at the back, which is you as well, but it's much larger in stature and would remind you of something like a being of angelic flame. Some people call this the higher self, some people call this the first layer of the 'superconscious', others call this the capital 'E' Ego, Jung called meeting this being Individuation, and it's the same light being who John of the Cross and Teresa of Avila were writing about their contacts with (it shows up strongly in John of the Cross's poetry). I don't exactly know where the next particular terminology came in to view historically but from the Hermetic Golden Dawn forward (through all the diaspora orders as well as Thelema and Crowley) it's been called the Holy Guardian Angel, and working toward contact with it is working toward an experience often referred in in occult/esoteric circles as 'Knowledge and Conversation of the Holy Guardian Angel'.
AMORC (Rosicrucian Order) suggests that the perfect, untarnishable, and really permanently 'unfallen' part of yourself is shaping and perfecting a being in something like a bay or inlet within its own structure which is being refined of a still subtle but yet grosser matter. They refer to that being that is getting shaped as the Soul Personality and to the higher element as the Human Soul. As far as I can tell the Soul Personality (getting sculpted) and the Holy Guardian Angel, higher self, etc. are the same thing and that matches, I think, the sort of calm, blissful, and impartial being that people experience themselves as when they go into an NDE (near death experience).
I've been in Builders of the Adytum for as long as I've been in AMORC, I actually like the monographs and knowledge in their system a bit more however Paul Foster Case and Ann Davies tend to stick with the tarot and the Tree of Life and focus a bit less on the particulars of that question whereas AMORC will give you that, almost front and center, but without a lot of supporting context. I know it might be confusing if I keep trying to draw in references to the Tree of Life because if your not familiar with it it might not mean much, just know that there are three triads and these I think do accurately represent what we're discussing - the top triad being something like the unfallen trinity within a person, the Soul Personality being what's getting shaped, and of course the third triad is the personality we experience with the last sphere at the bottom - not having a triad - represents the physical world and human body.
I also have to be careful if I use the word 'unfallen' (aside from it sounding like an Endless Space 2 reference) because to read the Corpus Hermeticum, Kore Kosmou, Divine Pymander, or anything like that you get the sense that it's not a story of sin and salvation but rather free energies roaming the universe, becoming fascinated by what they see below in the form of planets, the planets and materiality taking even more fascination with them, and the two become bound together and those original free-floating energies get so lost in play that they forget that they're playing. In a lot of ways it reminds me of the doctrine that's behind Ishtar's descent through the seven gates into the underworld (Manly P Hall covers this one really well) where with every gate, representing the spheres of the seven planets or seven Elohim, she has to take off part of her vestiture of power until she's in the underworld, before her sister Ereshkegal naked and powerless but none the less there to save her lover Tamuz, Ereshkegal kills her immediately, she's resurrected, and returns back through the gates with Tamuz.
That story represents an ancient doctrine that we were celestial beings who, as we descended that staircase of seven steps or seven spheres we received 'gifts' which were really burdens or tests related to that particular planet (ie. from highest to nearest earth: Saturn, Jupiter, Mars, Sun, Venus, Mercury, Moon), and as we accrue more of these gifts as we go down through the planets we become increasingly drunken and forgetful, where after we've passed the moon and are in Earth's orbit we're staggering and barely conscious, and by the time we're incarnate we're completely ignorant and without knowledge of who we are or where we came from. Obviously this is ancient cosmology, it doesn't at all fit what we know of the solar system, and it's part of why I rarely take these stories too objectively other than paying attention to the core principles or ideas that they seem to be getting at.
I don't know if that helps any but I would say that I can't speak for all Hermetic traditions that are out there as I don't think they have a completely unified take on soul, spirit, and matter (aside from what seem to be repeating tenets which I mentioned above), and something that's much closer to traditional Christianity, like Martinism for example, might have a fair amount of divergence to what you might find if you were in Crowley's A.'.A.'. and studying the Tree of Life (with The Beast as Chokmah and Babalon as Binah). The most important concepts will remain the same but different traditions will have different emphasis on different thing and some will have more mainstream Christianity and core tenets from that woven in whereas others will be more strictly philosophic and synchretic in their approach to the Kabbalah/Qabalah and ascent of the Tree of Life, carrying out the Great Work within oneself, etc.
Okay, I think I understand better now how this works, or at least the basic mechanics of this.
Just one thing, you speak of the the "traditional" and "mainstream" Christian view of the relationship between soul, spirit, and matter, what is your understanding this Christian? Because, when it comes to the Traditional Catholic understanding of the relationship between soul, spirit, matter, and the Protestant notion of these things, in some areas Protestants and Traditional Catholics agree or at the very least have very similar beliefs regarding these things. In other areas, Protestants and Traditional Catholics have radically different understandings of the relationship between soul, spirit and matter. So I want to know what your impression of the mainstream Christian view regarding body and soul, spirit and matter is?
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techstepgenr8tion
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TBH I don't know. The bible seems really ambiguous on this, aside from some reference in Hebrews 4:12 suggesting that soul and spirit are things that can be separated. That still raises the question that since this gospel is often attributed to Paul it might stand to reason that this is another case of Hellenistic Platonism/Neoplatonism pervading the New Testament. If one does take Paul and John as valid reformers of Judaic tradition then we're headed back to something similar to a Christian Cabbalistic perspective which takes us right back to Tomberg and Meditations on the Tarot.
That's the trouble with most mainstream views of religion though, ie. they generally leave most of the really important components relatively incoherent and then often raise the question of heresy when a person does try to make them coherent in a cosmological fashion (this happened with Jacob Boehme among the 16th/17th century Lutherans and Teilhard de Chardin also had plenty of jabs of that sort taken at him).
This is where I think Catholicism - going forward -could use some type of reform movement that keeps all the reverence, keeps the very Renaissance type of art, keeps some form of the Tridentine mass almost like a group incantation of sorts, and the eucharist should be kept because it's an extremely important edible talisman (Tomberg talks about this with Key 3: The Empress in MOTT). At the same time it should push the meditation techniques, work with models like the Tree of Life or John of the Cross's drawing of Mt Carmel (which looks strikingly similar) and work at being a place where its adherents are challenging themselves directly at spiritual growth and higher learning of that sort. I do worry that if it remains just a social club, even with mass and eucharist, it'll be losing adherents and the way our culture is going I also don't think that watering things down, like with Vatican II, was a helpful approach - rather it makes it feel like everything else, you get increasing numbers of Catholic churches feeling like nondenominational churches with the family on their guitars.
The additional trouble is they have deposits and dogmas that are inviolable, papal decisions are considered infallable (worse ossification than our legal precedents in the US). I think this would actually take there being a body, something like the Liberal Catholic Church or some sort of St. Cyprian oriented church doing their own heterodox thing, getting a pretty nasty article written about them in newadvent.org for being kabbalistic, masonic, or theosophic in underlying structure, and hopefully they'd grow on their own merits as people become increasingly skeptical that buying things on Amazon.com or getting the next latest tech gadget will help them resolve internal challenges. If they grew well enough and showed all signs of having high integrity and a strong grand lodge structure overseeing that integrity it could work. Unfortunately the old church could not agree with what they're doing unless they openly shattered the deposits and dogmas. Since they painted themselves into that corner as early as the 3rd or 4th century I highly doubt that they'd be able to do much more civil than not declare any member of this other church excommunicated or not declare membership a mortal sin and high risk for demonic possession. As of right now they're trapped being the spiritual/religious equivalent of D.A.R.E., as are most modern schools of Islam.
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Greatshield17
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I think I missed something in regards to the definition of "spirit" because what you said just now reminded of Mary's word in her Magnificat where she speaks of her soul magnifying the Lord, and her spirit rejoicing in God her Saviour. Saint Louis de Montfort, one of the greatest Marian devotees in Catholic history said that Mary was so humble that her spirit was in fact the Holy Spirit Himself, as she renounced any spirit of her own in humility, I'm not sure how that squares with your definition of the term "spirit" if you have completely different understanding of that term. Although I myself don't have a good understanding of the Catholic definition of the term spirit, and it may be that this term is used loosely and can mean a variety of things.
But going back to my original question, the difference between the Catholic view of the relationship between body and soul, and the Protestant view is actually much more basic than what you're addressing here. The Protestant view, and I'm speaking generally here, based both on what I've heard from Catholic apologists, and my own personal encounters with Protestants, is the basic body as a vehicle for the soul type of view, the soul is basically just all things immaterial that posses the body and operates it. By contrast, the Traditional Catholic understanding of the relationship between the body and the soul, is basically the Aristotelian view, namely, that the soul is to the body, what sight is to the eyes. The soul is not something the posses the body, but the principle whole of the body, the soul can exist without the body, but this state is what we call death, and is, as we know from Genesis, God's punishment for sin. This difference between Catholics and Protestants is one of the key reasons why Catholics and Protestants disagree and various issues like the Eucharist, devotion to Mary and the Saints and so on, it comes primarily from St. Paul's use of the term "flesh" ("sarx" in Greek) and other phrases in the New Testament, that Protestants have interpreted in this dualistic fashion. Also, Traditional Catholics consider the human person to be made up of three aspect, one physical, two immaterial, these three aspects are, the intellect, the will, and the body with its passions. (Some think that Sigmund Freud's superego, ego, and id are based off of these.)
_________________
Don't bother with me, I'm just a narrow-minded bigot who does nothing but "proselytize" not because I actually love the Faith, because no one loves the Faith, we're just "using it to justify our bigotry." If you see any thread by me on here that isn't "proselytizing," I can't explain that because that's obviously impossible; because again, all I've ever done on here is "proselytize."
WP is the 2nd worst forum site I have ever been on.
techstepgenr8tion
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My experience, outside the catholic church, has been with very pious US nondenominationals and a lot of this seems to fall into the territory of 'things we don't need to understand and have no right or authority to ask - obedience to scripture is sufficient'. When they're not retreating from things that are ambiguous or could cause group fracturing (as just mentioned) they seem to just admit that they don't know and that they'd rather stick with what they can speak confidently on and these days that does tend to turn toward rather literal interpretations. The Catholic church took greater confidence in these matters and built a large body of its own ideas but it seems like the Reformation happened in part due to the Great Schism, the Black Death (where priests were dying constantly from the plague), and I think the printing press had a lot to do with people reading the bible, taking its contents very seriously, and having a growing dis-ease with the variances they saw between the two.
I haven't read up on church history in a while, and I know I had an interest for a few months in pouring through the first through tenth century to look at the various councils and meetings to see what rules and changes were discussed (both Constantine and Justinian I had very interesting roles). I remember some people saying that Greek philosophy was seen as the bedrock for understanding the New Testament in some early time periods however I think St. Thomas Aquinas had a lot to do with making Catholicism more Aristotelian. Unfortunately, aside from his wheel of the elements, tutoring Alexander the Great, and a few of his inventions I can't remember a whole lot of his philosophy albeit I do hear a lot of people say that he brought a perspective that was something of a forerunner to Cartesian dualism and that he had certain perspectives in his philosophy which were almost an about-face to Plato's worldview.
All of those definitions might be too in-house for me to comment much on. When I usually think of will and intellect I'd think of will as the motive force rising up from places behind your self-conscious awareness and impelling you to act whereas the intellect is what attempts to true up the difference between that will and the body as well as the external environment to see whether the will can be carried out, if it can whether it needs modifications to be enacted, etc.. I don't think Freud's superego works well for will because, to the best of my memory, his superego is a storehouse of rules, penalties, and hard-learned lessons and it's the voice that thrashes you if you make a mistake. The will is something closer to pure or unfiltered motive.
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