Proof That Altruism is Natural and Democracy Works

Page 1 of 1 [ 10 posts ] 

DarthMetaKnight
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 16 Feb 2010
Gender: Male
Posts: 6,105
Location: The Infodome

26 Feb 2018, 8:35 pm

Hi all. Right now I feel a bit angry because of an argument that I keep hearing.

I hate it when people claim that human beings are naturally sociopathic, and that every last ounce of our morality comes from governments and/or gods.

In the past, various people have written long essays proving that altruism is natural, but I can prove it very quickly.

Consider the Following: In the prehistoric era, there were no governments and people were generally animists. Why didn't they kill their own children? There was no government stopping them. The Ten Commandments didn't exist yet.

Humans must possess some form of natural altruism or else we wouldn't have even survived prehistory. Keep in mind that we evolved from bipedal apes around 300,000 years ago. Civilisation has only existed since around 11,000 BC. This means that the Middle Eastern people survived without any formal legal code for 290,000 years. Other races survived without any formal legal code for even longer.

"Mob mentality" is an overrated concept. Can little children survive in a world run by angry mobs? Of course not.

Pay no attention to the fundies, statists, and other misanthropes. Democracy works.

The problems with the modern world do not come from democracy. They exist because we aren't as democratic as the man on TV says we are.


_________________
Synthetic carbo-polymers got em through man. They got em through mouse. They got through, and we're gonna get out.
-Roostre

READ THIS -> https://represent.us/


Pepe
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Jun 2013
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 26,635
Location: Australia

27 Feb 2018, 2:49 am

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
I hate it when people claim that human beings are naturally sociopathic, and that every last ounce of our morality comes from governments and/or gods.


First time I ever heard that theory...

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
In the past, various people have written long essays proving that altruism is natural, but I can prove it very quickly.

Consider the Following: In the prehistoric era, there were no governments and people were generally animists. Why didn't they kill their own children? There was no government stopping them. The Ten Commandments didn't exist yet.


Almost every organism doesn't kill it's own children, why would the human animal be any different?

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
Humans must possess some form of natural altruism or else we wouldn't have even survived prehistory. Keep in mind that we evolved from bipedal apes around 300,000 years ago. Civilisation has only existed since around 11,000 BC. This means that the Middle Eastern people survived without any formal legal code for 290,000 years. Other races survived without any formal legal code for even longer.

Sorry, not a convincing argument...
Humanity is overwhelmingly egocentric, with relatively rare examples of inherent altruistic tendencies which win citations...
Hardcore altruism where one would sacrifice one's life for a stranger is very rare and rather silly, imo...
Sacrificing oneself for a loved one is less rare...

Altruism can, however, be indoctrinated through ideology, e.g. Nazism...I.E. Loyalty to an ideal, a tribe, a leader...
Individualism is suppressed as a result...

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
"Mob mentality" is an overrated concept. Can little children survive in a world run by angry mobs? Of course not.

Mob mentality doesn't work that way...
Quote:
Herd mentality and mob mentality, also lesser known as gang mentality describes how people are influenced by their peers to adopt certain behaviors. Examples of the herd mentality include nationalism, globalism, stock market trends, superstition, and even home décor.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_mentality

People don't turn on their kids...
They turn on other people's kids, tribes or outsiders...

Further reading:
Quote:
History

Herd mentality and herd behavior, also lesser known as Gang Mentality have been prevalent descriptors for human behavior since people began to form tribes, migrate in groups, and perform cooperative marketing and agricultural functions. The idea of a "group mind" or "mob behavior" was first put forward by 19th-century French social psychologists Gabriel Tarde and Gustave Le Bon. Herd behavior in human societies has also been studied by Sigmund Freud and Wilfred Trotter, whose book Instincts of the Herd in Peace and War is a classic in the field of social psychology. Sociologist and economist Thorstein Veblen's The Theory of the Leisure Class illustrates how individuals imitate other group members of higher social status in their consumer behavior. More recently, Malcolm Gladwell in The Tipping Point, examines how cultural, social, and economic factors converge to create trends in consumer behavior. In 2004, the New Yorker's financial columnist James Suroweicki published The Wisdom of Crowds.

Twenty-first-century academic fields such as marketing and behavioral finance attempt to identify and predict the rational and irrational behavior of investors. (See the work of Daniel Kahneman, Robert Shiller, Vernon L. Smith, and Amos Tversky.) Driven by emotional reactions such as greed and fear, investors can be seen to join in frantic purchasing and sales of stocks, creating bubbles and crashes. As a result, herd behavior is closely studied by behavioral finance experts in order to help predict future economic crises.[1]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Herd_mentality



kraftiekortie
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 4 Feb 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 87,510
Location: Queens, NYC

27 Feb 2018, 10:21 am

This is an argument, basically, between the "glass half full" people and the "glass half empty" people.

I have faith in the basic altruism of most people. It is not in the best interest of most people to be sociopathic, ultimately.

Power does corrupt, though.

Even "primitive" people live under a "government," however informal. There's almost always a "council of elders" or some such thing. People don't just run amok; it's not like how it is portrayed in the movies.

We, in the US, have a "modified democracy." A true democracy would be almost akin to communism, except that absolute communism demands absolute egalitarianism. For the most part, it works. And has worked at least fairly well since its inception. Obviously, it is not perfect----but the alternative, most likely, is far worse.

The people who formulated the Constitution were able to make considerable compromises, and sacrifice some of their most sacred principles. Especially that which, like the Articles of Confederation, gives almost sovereign power to individual states.



smudgedhorizon
Toucan
Toucan

User avatar

Joined: 19 Dec 2017
Gender: Female
Posts: 293

27 Feb 2018, 3:27 pm

My morals come from empathy. When I saw a boy hit his head, my head instantly hurt. Most people are this way when others have troubles. That's why people cry when they watch sad movies. However, emotional trauma numbs these feelings.


_________________
Signature under construction.


thinkinginpictures
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 7 May 2011
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,310

02 Mar 2018, 5:07 pm

I am one of those who believe humans are naturally born to be sociopaths.

Fact of the matter is, the reason people don't kill each other is because they might not succeed in the killing, because people would naturally protect themselves. Also, you end up getting killed yourself, that's why humans will make laws to exist.

The fact that we need laws is evidence humans are naturally sociopaths.

If we were naturally altruists we wouldn't need laws.

So contrary to proving humans are not sociopaths, you actually provided the evidence for the opposite. Thank you!



Hollywood_Guy
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Nov 2017
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,283
Location: US

02 Mar 2018, 5:18 pm

And this, even before modern times, “primitive” groups weren’t always with the greatest intention either.



smudgedhorizon
Toucan
Toucan

User avatar

Joined: 19 Dec 2017
Gender: Female
Posts: 293

02 Mar 2018, 5:46 pm

What about this: some are sociopaths, others are not. The end.


_________________
Signature under construction.


Pepe
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 11 Jun 2013
Gender: Non-binary
Posts: 26,635
Location: Australia

02 Mar 2018, 5:59 pm

thinkinginpictures wrote:
I am one of those who believe humans are naturally born to be sociopaths.

Fact of the matter is, the reason people don't kill each other is because they might not succeed in the killing, because people would naturally protect themselves. Also, you end up getting killed yourself, that's why humans will make laws to exist.

The fact that we need laws is evidence humans are naturally sociopaths.

If we were naturally altruists we wouldn't need laws.

So contrary to proving humans are not sociopaths, you actually provided the evidence for the opposite. Thank you!


Quote:
You may have heard the term "sociopath" but not understood what it actually meant. It's actually a colloquial term for Antisocial Personality Disorder. Sociopathy (link is external) can be a disarming disorder because the person who has it appears unfeeling and disregards other's feelings.

A person who has Antisocial Personality Disorder doesn't care about what is right and what is wrong. This is also true of a sociopath. They do not have regard for other people's feelings and consistently ignore them or are outright disrespectful to them. Someone with an antisocial personality disorder is highly skilled at manipulation in order to get what they want. They antagonize others and can be cold and calculating in order to achieve what they want. There is a strong element of narcissism in this disorder. One key component of antisocial personality disorder is that the person doesn't feel any guilt or shame for what they have done to others. They don't find the need to apologize for their wrongs.

https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/pa ... -sociopath

Sociopathy is diagnosable psychiatric disorder...
This inherently means it is not normal!

How many people here would satisfy the prerequisites for that psychological disorder?...<sigh>

Sociopaths are made...
Psychopaths are born...

Quote:
Sociopath vs. Psychopath: What’s the Difference?
By Kara Mayer Robinson
From the WebMD Archives

You may have heard people call someone else a “psychopath” or a “sociopath.” But what do those words really mean?

You won’t find the definitions in mental health’s official handbook, the Diagnostic and Statistical Manual of Mental Disorders. Doctors don’t officially diagnose people as psychopaths or sociopaths. They use a different term instead: antisocial personality disorder.

Most experts believe psychopaths and sociopaths share a similar set of traits. People like this have a poor inner sense of right and wrong. They also can’t seem to understand or share another person’s feelings. But there are some differences, too.
Do They Have a Conscience?

A key difference between a psychopath and a sociopath is whether he has a conscience, the little voice inside that lets us know when we’re doing something wrong, says L. Michael Tompkins, EdD. He's a psychologist at the Sacramento County Mental Health Treatment Center.

A psychopath doesn’t have a conscience. If he lies to you so he can steal your money, he won’t feel any moral qualms, though he may pretend to. He may observe others and then act the way they do so he’s not “found out,” Tompkins says.

A sociopath typically has a conscience, but it’s weak. He may know that taking your money is wrong, and he might feel some guilt or remorse, but that won’t stop his behavior.

Both lack empathy, the ability to stand in someone else’s shoes and understand how they feel. But a psychopath has less regard for others, says Aaron Kipnis, PhD, author of The Midas Complex. Someone with this personality type sees others as objects he can use for his own benefit.
https://www.webmd.com/mental-health/fea ... fference#1

Are psychopaths born or made? - Quora
Oct 9, 2016 - True psychopathy is extremely rare. It is between It is between .75%–1% percent of the population with a 20:1 ratio men to women. It cannot be induced as that is not what defined psychopathy is. It is how the brain formed in utero. Psychopathy is born.
https://www.quora.com/Are-psychopaths-born-or-made


Quote:
Sociopath is the common language term for what is technically diagnosed as a secondary psychopath. Secondary psychopath traits are essentially made.
https://www.quora.com/Are-sociopaths-born-or-raised



Mikah
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Oct 2015
Age: 37
Posts: 3,201
Location: England

06 Mar 2018, 1:40 am

I don't know which morons are saying humans are not altruistic, sounds like something a statist would say. Humans are not, however, universally altruistic. That is, humans do not show the same level of altruism to all members of the species. Family comes first, then ethnicity, then the ties of religion and culture. Everyone else can f**k right off as far as most of humanity is concerned.

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
Consider the Following: In the prehistoric era, there were no governments and people were generally animists. Why didn't they kill their own children?


They certainly didn't mind killing other people's children from time to time...

You seem to be countering an argument I have not heard before, someone is saying that democracy doesn't work because humans are not altruistic? (enough?). I don't see the mechanism, unless they argue that people largely vote in their own interests (usually true) ahead of what they understand as the greater good.


_________________
Behold! we are not bound for ever to the circles of the world, and beyond them is more than memory, Farewell!


Tollorin
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 14 Jun 2009
Age: 43
Gender: Male
Posts: 3,178
Location: Sherbrooke, Québec, Canada

06 Mar 2018, 2:16 am

kraftiekortie wrote:
This is an argument, basically, between the "glass half full" people and the "glass half empty" people.

I have faith in the basic altruism of most people. It is not in the best interest of most people to be sociopathic, ultimately.

Power does corrupt, though.

Even "primitive" people live under a "government," however informal. There's almost always a "council of elders" or some such thing. People don't just run amok; it's not like how it is portrayed in the movies.

We, in the US, have a "modified democracy." A true democracy would be almost akin to communism, except that absolute communism demands absolute egalitarianism. For the most part, it works. And has worked at least fairly well since its inception. Obviously, it is not perfect----but the alternative, most likely, is far worse.

The people who formulated the Constitution were able to make considerable compromises, and sacrifice some of their most sacred principles. Especially that which, like the Articles of Confederation, gives almost sovereign power to individual states.

I'm very pessimistic, I think things will only get worse from there on; yet I do believe in the reality of altruism, contrary to what say somes, I just think our specie is made off of stupid peoples and that their altruism is too much reserved to their tribes. Peoples will kill and die for the love of their tribes; thus nationalism, allowing authoritarian elites to easily manipulate peoples toward war and genocides, allowing them to keep power.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zkS6WpbLUFw


_________________
Down with speculators!! !