Policing the wrong kind of speech in the UK

Page 1 of 1 [ 15 posts ]

Previous topic | Next topic

ASPartOfMe
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 35,583
Location: Long Island, New York

03 Jun 2019, 7:14 am

Combating Extremism with More Extremism

Quote:

Americans have never been entirely comfortable with their freedoms, particularly those that license the wrong sorts of behavior from their political adversaries. The First Amendment to the Constitution is a particular source of consternation. It’s far harder, after all, to combat unproductive or anti-social forms of expression in the arena of ideas than it is to silence them through the courts or the legislature. But Americans who lament the excesses that accompany liberty can look to the rest of the Anglophonic world to see what life would be like without those freedoms.

The U.K. is a compelling case study in what a government-led campaign against “bad ideas” looks like. Amid British efforts to clamp down on the kind of ideological fervor that can manifest in criminality, the government itself has become extremist.

“The United Kingdom is concerned about homegrown radicalization and possible terrorist attacks committed by British nationals on British soil,” reads the British government’s summary of the campaign against “extremism.” The terroristic threat posed by everyone from Islamist radicals to neo-Nazis to Irish separatists has necessitated extraordinary measures. Because the government of this largely free society cannot capriciously imprison people it doesn’t like, it must combat radicalization in other ways. One of those ways has been to brand certain political activities “extreme” and to apply legal consequences to that status.

In 2017, four members of the British military were arrested on suspicion that they were affiliating with a far-right group that was banned after it endorsed the murder of Labour MP Jo Cox, who was assassinated in June 2016. The Ministry of Defense determined that it had a problem with militant nationalism in its ranks. So, to combat and stigmatize those ideas, it trained the soldiers under its command to recognize that kind of militancy and instructed them to inform on their radicalized comrades.

A U.K. Army document identified the “indicators & warnings” that suggest a soldier had become “Extreme Right Wing (XRW).” So, what are the signs that your compatriot in the trenches may be swayed by the ramblings of the racially anxious right? Among some more overt expressions of white nationalism, the solider may also be prone to making “inaccurate generalizations about the Left.” He might be “increasingly angry at perceived injustices or threats to so-called national identity” and could describe political opponents as “Traitors.” Worst of all, the XRW among you will be known by the fact that they “describe themselves as ‘Patriots.’”

Obviously, issuing an all-points bulletin to be on the lookout for “patriots” in the armed forces is going to leave aspiring informants spoiled for choice. Nor is it entirely clear why patriotic sentiments would be limited to the British right. The British Ministry of Defense seems aware of the controversy surrounding the document, which leaked to the press following a freedom of information request earlier this month. Displaying one or more of the traits of an XRW does not itself make one an XRW, a ministry spokesperson explained. A holistic approach to combating radicalization demands, however, that almost all right-wing views be deemed potentially suspect, if only out of an abundance of caution.

The right isn’t alone in being targeted. Last year, the journalist Michael Segalov was banned for no ostensible reasons from covering a Labour Party conference on the grounds that he could potentially disrupt it. He sued the local police force that issued the ban and discovered that he had been secretly labeled a “known extreme leftwing (XLW) activist.” His crime was guilt by association. Police justified the ban by noting that Segalov had once met with leftist anti-deportation activists, some of whom later released a swarm of cockroaches in a local restaurant. Segalov claims he was just reporting on the events around this group’s protest, and a judge agreed. But that didn’t prevent him from being secretly branded a threat to the state for years.

A government that is empowered to police free expression and association will always make liberal use of its authority. Republicans and Democrats who would prefer to see the federal government empowered to police the kinds of conduct they don’t like should be prepared to see themselves and their allies become the target of such a state. There is no permissive liberal society that does not wrestle over how to combat radical ideas that prescribe violence and persecution. But introducing severity to combat severity sacrifices the moral high ground and is ultimately unproductive. The undeserving who are swept up in these excessive measures now have cause to be radicalized themselves, after all.

Britain has embraced extremism to fight extremism. In the end, extremism wins.

_________________
Professionally Identified and joined WP August 26, 2013
DSM 5: Autism Spectrum Disorder, DSM IV: Aspergers Moderate Severity

“My autism is not a superpower. It also isn’t some kind of god-forsaken, endless fountain of suffering inflicted on my family. It’s just part of who I am as a person”. - Sara Luterman

Drake
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 24 Feb 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,577

04 Jun 2019, 8:49 am

I was curious about the insect attack, so I looked it up:

https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2016/0 ... rger-rest/

Let's have a look at these.

Yeah, that gets a really big :roll: from me. The patriot one is the first one!

Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 May 2008
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 60,709
Location: Stendec

04 Jun 2019, 8:59 am

Hmm ... the document describes a few members here on WP ...

:chin:

_________________

No love for Hamas, Hezbollah, Iranian Leadership, Islamic Jihad, other Islamic terrorist groups, OR their supporters and sympathizers.

Drake
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 24 Feb 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,577

04 Jun 2019, 9:14 am

Fnord wrote:

Hmm ... the document describes a few members here on WP ...

:chin:

That's too bad. Looks like your hopes of never seeing someone from WP in the news for murder will be dashed. :wink:

Me, I'm not sure if I've ever put it in those words, but it's obvious political correctness is a left wing plot. Right wing political correctness does exist, but it's really small compared to left wing. The left is purposefully driving it and punishing those who don't conform to it, so how is it not a plot? It's about power and control. It's a weapon to use against opponents and a weapon to prevent certain types of conversations from being able to happen.

Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 May 2008
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 60,709
Location: Stendec

04 Jun 2019, 9:31 am

Don't they see that the whole aim of Political Correctness is to narrow the range of thought? The purpose of Political Correctness is not only to provide a medium of expression for the world-view and mental habits proper to the devotees of The Left, but to make all other modes of thought impossible. The Left is not so much interested in proper behavior, but in the intent behind it.

What are your motives, comrade? Are they for the good of the State? Or are you acting in your own self-interest?

Answer wisely, comrade.

_________________

No love for Hamas, Hezbollah, Iranian Leadership, Islamic Jihad, other Islamic terrorist groups, OR their supporters and sympathizers.

Drake
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 24 Feb 2014
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,577

04 Jun 2019, 11:20 am

And also, if you put a framework in place to enforce political correctness, if someone else takes power, all they have to do is tweak what's enforced. Progressive politics are taking a beating around the World right now, so there's no reason to assume it won't happen.

Wolfram87
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 14 Feb 2015
Age: 36
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,976
Location: Sweden

04 Jun 2019, 11:41 am

Wow, that list is terrible.

Okay, so you can't use the term "islamofascism" to distinguish fascistic strains of Islam from less extreme ones, but if you don't make the distinction you might be "making generalizations about muslims and jews".

"Adding "-istan" to place names"...so, being edgy on the internet makes you Extreme Right Wing (tm).

"make inaccurate generalizations about the left and the government"...what about accurate ones?

"Use blatantly untruthful or incorrect references to immigrants, Judaism or Islam"...again, what about accurate ones?

I mean, sure, a swastika tattoo might be a bit of an indicator, but most of these are just absurd.

_________________
I'm bored out of my skull, let's play a different game. Let's pay a visit down below and cast the world in flame.

Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 May 2008
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 60,709
Location: Stendec

04 Jun 2019, 1:27 pm

For those who cannot make out what the image says, the following is the full text of the document.

...

"Extreme Right-Wing (XRW) Indicators & Warnings"

Look out for individuals who...

• Describe themselves as 'Patriots'

• Add 'istan' to British place names

• Describe multicultural towns as 'lost'

• Have tattoos with overt and covert XRW iconography

• Look at opponents as 'Traitors'

• Use the term 'Islamofascism'

• Discuss the creation of 'white only' communities

• Become increasingly angry at perceived injustices or threats to so called 'National Identity'

• Refer to individuals ready to challenge their XRW views as being 'indoctrinated'

• Make generalisations about Muslims and Jews

• Claim that immigration is the root of injustices against vulnerable people (e.g. old age pensioners, veterans)

• Involve colleagues in closed social media groups

• Refer to Political Correctness as some left wing or communist plot

• Make inaccurate generalisations about 'the Left' or Government

• Threaten violence when losing an argument, although claiming that XRW groups protest peacefully

• Actively seek out impressionable individuals to indoctrinate or recruit

• Use blatantly untruthful or incorrect references to immigrants, Judaism or Islam

• Talk of an impending racial conflict or 'Race War'

• Claim that it is acceptable to abuse Jews or Muslims as Judaism or Islam are not 'races'

• Have extreme XRW group stickers or badges on clothing and personal items

If you are concerned about the behaviour of any member of the Army you should report your concerns through the CofC and to the Army Warning, Advisory and Reporting Point (WARP)

...

This list makes sense to me. Like other lists I've posted, one or two of these behaviors might not mean anything, but the more of these behaviors you see in one person, the more likely that person is an extremist and likely to turn to violent action to defend his/her beliefs. Remember, this is an official government document, so of course some people would be opposed to it.

_________________

No love for Hamas, Hezbollah, Iranian Leadership, Islamic Jihad, other Islamic terrorist groups, OR their supporters and sympathizers.

ASPartOfMe
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 25 Aug 2013
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 35,583
Location: Long Island, New York

04 Jun 2019, 2:25 pm

Fnord wrote:

If a soldier does a lot of those things it is probable the soldier is not completely loyal to the crown.

Rant:
This makes it official, “Patriot” like “ret*d” or “spastic” are legitimate words that have been incorrectly used by bad people enough times that good people accept the bad peoples definition of the words, thus making these words politically incorrect, AGAIN.

Being patriotic ie loving your county is not a bad thing, it is a good thing. Now if you claim you are a patriot a whole lot of people are going to assume you are a Nazi, and law enforcement are might think you are a person the needs to be watched.

Of course Patriotism like anything else taken to extreme or used the wrong way is bad. I should not feel the need to make that defensive caveat, but yet I do.

This is tiring, frustrating, and feeling more like a pathetic lost cause seemingly every day. Time is not on our side.

Antrax
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 23 Feb 2019
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,639
Location: west coast

04 Jun 2019, 5:32 pm

It's always been my opinion that actions should be punishable by law, while ideology should not.

As for the U.K's military bulletin. Military personnel can be subject to stricter standards than the general populace.

_________________
"Ignorance may be bliss, but knowledge is power."

Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 May 2008
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 60,709
Location: Stendec

04 Jun 2019, 6:43 pm

Antrax wrote:

It's always been my opinion that actions should be punishable by law, while ideology should not.
As for the U.K's military bulletin. Military personnel can be subject to stricter standards than the general populace.

What if your ideology say that its okay to abuse, assault and enslave anyone who is not of your race, gender, religion, and political affiliation? What if your ideology says that its okay to commit mass murder against unarmed and defenseless children? What if your ideology says that the current political system in your country must be overthrown and replaced with a fascist dictatorship?

Sure, these ideologies are out there, and most of the time they are not being expressed; but when they are expressed, people get hurt and die, property gets damaged and destroyed, and the established government clamps down even further.

_________________

No love for Hamas, Hezbollah, Iranian Leadership, Islamic Jihad, other Islamic terrorist groups, OR their supporters and sympathizers.

Antrax
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 23 Feb 2019
Gender: Male
Posts: 1,639
Location: west coast

04 Jun 2019, 7:11 pm

Fnord wrote:

Antrax wrote:

It's always been my opinion that actions should be punishable by law, while ideology should not.
As for the U.K's military bulletin. Military personnel can be subject to stricter standards than the general populace.

You can think it is ok to abuse assault and enslave anyone as long as you don't actually abuse assault or enslave anyone. You can think mass murder is ok as long as you don't commit mass murder. You can think the current political system must be overthrown as long as you don't take any actions to overthrow it.

Actions are concrete, ideologies and expressions of them murky. This is why it makes sense to me to punish actions rather than ideologies. Take the following example:

1) Tries to blow up the white house to overthrow the government, but get caught with the explosives.

2) Says that Donald Trump is "not my president and he needs to be removed from office."

The former is a violent action to overthrow the government, the latter could be interpreted as ideology supporting that goal. Or it could be a few dozen of my friends that hate Trumps guts, but have no plans to overthrow the government.

_________________
"Ignorance may be bliss, but knowledge is power."

Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 May 2008
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 60,709
Location: Stendec

04 Jun 2019, 7:29 pm

Thanks for elaborating.

_________________

No love for Hamas, Hezbollah, Iranian Leadership, Islamic Jihad, other Islamic terrorist groups, OR their supporters and sympathizers.

shlaifu
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 26 May 2014
Age: 40
Gender: Male
Posts: 2,659

05 Jun 2019, 4:48 am

Hmm. Since this is like a medical catalogue for a diagnosis of a not-fully-understood illness, it seems okay, really. If all you're doing is calling yourself a patriot, the doctor won't diagnose you with XRW based on that.
It's a list of symptoms to watch out for in your colleagues in the military, so it's not 'law'.

The guy mentioned in the article who was deemed XLW, that's more interesting, as it shows that on the left, interviewing XLW people leads to association, and that alone seems enough.
No item on the XRW list says: "spoke to other XRW"...
And look at the crime the XLW committed: release cockroaches.... Hardly equivalent to setting a home for asylum seekers on fire, as the xrw in germany like to do...

_________________
I can read facial expressions. I did the test.

Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

Joined: 6 May 2008
Age: 67
Gender: Male
Posts: 60,709
Location: Stendec

05 Jun 2019, 8:25 am

Admittedly, the list needs improvement. "Associates with one or more known XRWs", "Fascination with mass murder events", "Stockpiles weapons and ammunition", and "Purchases inordinate amounts of substances known to be used in IEDs" might be in order.

_________________

No love for Hamas, Hezbollah, Iranian Leadership, Islamic Jihad, other Islamic terrorist groups, OR their supporters and sympathizers.

Page 1 of 1 [ 15 posts ]

Jump to:

Policing the wrong kind of speech in the UK Post Reply New Topic

Policing the wrong kind of speech in the UK