Public speech by Cornell History Professor soon after 7 Oct

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From the Cornell Sun, be aware that mentions of "the Sun" refer to the Cornell Sun, not the British tabloid.

https://cornellsun.com/2023/10/16/cornell-professor-exhilarated-by-hamass-attack-defends-remark/

Thoughts?

I really don't see 10/7 as a true "shifting of the balance of power." I see it as Iran using Hamas as a pawn, resulting in absolute disaster for Gaza.

A true "shifting of the balance of power" would require a great diminishment of Christian Zionism here in the U.S.A., to be replaced by -- or at least significantly rivaled by -- a strong American Christian sense of solidarity with Palestinian Christians. That's what it would probably take to get the U.S.A. to stop unconditionally supporting Israel. And that, in my opinion, is the one thing that could potentially force Israel to start making real concessions to the Palestinians.

I see no good reason for anyone outside of Iran (and maybe Russia, China, or North Korea?) to feel "exhilarated" by 10/7.

Last edited by Mona Pereth on 23 Dec 2023, 5:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Reading this again, more closely:

I can understand exhilaration at the sight of Gazans breaking down parts of the wall/fence. But not exhilaration at what happened after that.

Militarily?

The ratio in strength between Israel and Palestine is the same as before.

"Monopoly on violence". Both Israelies and Palestinians have accused the other side of inflicting violence. And neither admits to dealing it out.

HAMAS did get "the drop" on Israel and won this round with the Oct seventh attacks.

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But this does seem to be a watershed moment in history with no turning back.

The fanatics in both Israel and Palestine seemed to be the actual victors. Both HAMAS and their greatest ally, Netanyahu. have jointly won, against the common enemy of both ...the dream of a two state solution of moderates on both sides.

Seems to be spiraling down into out and out ethnic cleansing.

That may be true, however Palestine has all the popular support world wide (in those parts of the world where people actually care about such things) whereas Israel has very little. Despite what others have said about official American support for Israel, it looks rather tenuous to me. So unless these events are overshadowed by something unrelated that's even bigger, it looks to me like the first move in the endgame that leads to the end of Israel as a sovereign nation.

Why and how?

The latest polls about half of Americans approve and half dont approve of Biden's actions on the current Israel conflict.

But here is the kicker. That half who disapprove are about evenly split between disapproval for opposite reasons. Those who think he is too warlike and too soft on Israel about equal those who think is too soft on HAMAS, and isnt warlike enough.

So...maybe that all means that it all averages out...that most Americans agree with me that Biden is doing the right middle of the road thing. Lol!

I basically agree with Biden's policy. Of course that policy puts the US at odds with everybody else at the UN.

On the other hand, Biden is extremely unpopular. I doubt most Americans pay much attention to his specific policies, they just want him out of the White House.

In previous generations, support for Israel was more or less a given. But it seems that the huge outpouring of outrage over civilian casualties in Gaza, especially in the Ivy League, suggests that grass roots support for Israel has become a thing of the past. Only Jews and some Christians are strongly committed any more. Jews are a small group, and even some Jews aren't strong supporters. The Christians who are committed to the existence of a Jewish State because of how they interpret the Book of Revelations aren't all Christians, just a hard core element. Plus Evangelical Christianity isn't what it was a couple of decades ago. The MAGA movement doesn't seem that strongly tied to religion. Donald Trump apparently likes Netanyahu because he's a thug, but I don't see how that leads to widespread public support. The big issue though is younger generations across the political spectrum. Unless they're actually Jewish, they don't seem to have any love for Israel and won't support politicians who seem willing to overlook what to them is basic genocidal brutality.

China is on the rise as a global power and is bulding alliences with likeminded countries while at the same time the power of the US is dimishing. At some point the days when the US can do pretty much anything on the global scene without caring about the global opinion or international law will be over. What will happen to Israel then if Israel doesn't start to build their credibilty as a democratic state that play by the rules?

I feel exhilarated not because I enjoy watching civilians be killed. I feel exhilarated the same way a Brit in 1941 feels when reading about German cities being bombed by the RAF. Did thousands of innocent German citizens die? Yup! Is that okay? Not really! Would the RAF have bombed those cities if Germany, like Israel, had not started a genocidal war for Lebensraum? Nope!
Those who enable their governments' imperialism do not get to play victim when their states' violence comes back to bite them in the ass.

You're naive if you think there was no impetus for retaliation among everyday Palestinians without Iranian influence. Whether Iran supported Hamas or not, Hamas would still engage in violent resistance against Israeli occupation and genocide.
Acting like this is all because of Iranian meddling is ignorant and denies Palestine any agency in its decades-long resistance.

This is interesting. You mention China's rise as a global power (possible) but then you say China is building alliances with "likeminded countries". I don't know what likeminded means in this case. From what I can tell, China's relations with other countries are driven solely by what they think will best advantage China. They don't consider the social conditions in the countries with which they deal, at least not in the way a Westerner would think of it.

Now consider which countries have always been the most staunchly anti-Zionist. These come to mind: Russia, Iran, Cuba, North Korea, Syria, Venezuela. These, and others, seem to belong to an informal coalition of countries that have also been most steadfastly opposed to the aims of the US and its allies. It also happens that these are countries that have unapologetically authoritarian régimes, so it leads to the ironic conclusion that to be truly committed to the plight of Palestine, it helps to be authoritarian. I won't try to go further with that argument.

Instead, I will address your other point that suggests that to survive, Israel must build its credibility as a democratic state. Now I don't know what you mean by democratic. Ironically, of all countries in the region, Israel comes closest to fulfilling the Western definition of "democratic", i.e. basing their governance on the dictates of a constitution, holding what have always seemed to be open elections with frequent changes of government. In fact, this electoral process is by no means restricted to Jews. In your case, I think you mean "democratic" in the sense that one group isn't advantaged over another, which is more or less what Marxist/Leninists had in mind when they used the term. Again, I won't go any further with that, either you understand me or you don't.

I would be curious as to where you live, as knowing that helps me to understand what sort of things you may have learned about Israel while growing up.

Iran originally hated Israel because Israel supported the Shah. The Shah has been dead for 43 years, and I think modern Iranians now hate Israel because they were taught so while growing up. I don't think the Shi'ite clerics that run Iran give a rooty-toot-toot about Sunni (or Christian) Palestinians, but aligning against Israel gives them an advantage (so they believe) in their rivalry with Saudi Arabia for regional hegemony.

Considering the immediate consequences of the actions of Hamas in this instance, and assuming that Iran may have had a role in encouraging the pogrom, you have to ask if it would have happened without Iran's involvement. Possible, but likely?

If this poll is to be believed you are on to something.
U.S. support for Israel in its war against Hamas dropping

What I perceive from this and other polling is while the almost universal unquestioned support for Israel we grew with is gone for good, despite the perception you get from the protests in streets and this forum that there is a groundswell of seething anger towards Israel Americans are still more sympathetic to Israel then the Palestinians at the moment.

I'm aware that there is a spectrum of opinion among Palestinians, ranging from militants to moderates.

However, even the militants (except perhaps the most naive young folks?) must be aware that they are taking huge risks, including the risk that Israel may use the militants' actions as an excuse to complete the ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians, if not outright genocide thereof. Therefore, I would expect even the militants to have regarded 10/7 not with "exhilaration" but with, at best, a mix of hope and fear.


Without Iranian support (and/or whatever other outside support Hamas has received), Hamas would not have had access to any weaponry other than home-made bombs, nor would they have been able to build their tunnel network. Thus they would not have been able to pull off something like 10/7.

Most likely on the basis that "the enemy of my enemy is my friend." All these countries hate the U.S.A. for one reason or another, hence hate any and all longtime allies of the U.S.A., hence sympathize with anyone being picked on by either the U.S.A. itself or an ally thereof.


I don't think that's the key commonality, at all. The U.S.A. has had some pretty darned authoritarian allies, too.