Why Does Education Not Always Hit The Mark?

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Mountain Goat
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02 Mar 2021, 8:34 am

Education has become an industry asigned to producing carbon copies of specific types of people all with cloned abilities according to the educative courses they have been on and if they have passed, the pass signifies that they have been sufficiently brainwashed into following certain concepts of knowledge.

Ok. It may seem a little harsh and unfair but think of this. Think of the ones who don't pass. Is it because they do not have knowledge. No, though for a few maybe it is. It is often not because they do not have the knowledge, but because they were not able to put their knowledge in the acceptable form at the right time that it was required of them to do so. A few it is that they need a bit more knowledge to be ready, but for most it is that on the day or days they are required to share what they have learned, they are not able to put it in the form that is required.

I have known people who are deemed as exceptionally intellignent, but their intelligence is in the ability to memorize and recall, and also use the right methods they have been taught at the right time. Their intelligence is that they have quick minds and are excellent copiers of what they have been taught.

I know others like me whose intelligence comes from a different direction. The ability to think independently from the confined teachings and think outside of what has been taught, using what has been taught as an occasional reference to what the person is exploring, and seeing if what has been taught fits with the subject being explored and dissregarding it if it does not... Making ones own reference points as one goes along and testing them to see if they are secure. (Think of a climber who hammers in his own safety pegs. Who does not rely on pegs other climbers have put in. Where while the first example will nimbly and quickly climb the mountain using the pegs others have laid before them, this example hammers in his own pegs and is therefore able to explore areas that others have never been before).

What is the best way to educate... The capitalist education system thrives on money. Gaining grants or funds from students or governments, and their goal is to set courses and get as many people to pass as they can, as:-
Pass rates = Good Reputation = Success = Money.

Lets simplify that to:-

Pass rates = Money.

The problem is one can call a degree a degree, but lower the standards of that degree to increase the pass rates which will bring in more success which will increase the money, which as happened since the education system in the UK is no longer owned by the government, but I am going on a tangent here.

What should we be looking at while educating? Think of the rock climbing analogy.

Lets look at this again from what we should be providing to our climbers.

The knowledge of what to use and bring and how to use it. We need our climbers to be adiquately equipped with the right tools and equipment for the tasks they will be expected to perform, and train them with the knowledge to use them. We also need them to have the ability to think outside the box so they can adjust their equipment as necessary, so they are not taking things that they don-t need, but are taking more of what they will need. We need to teach them to plan ahead!

Do we need them to take exams other the to prove that they have been trained? \○/ Is it not more important that they are safe to climb in life? That they learn how to adjust to situations they have not been in before?
It is a different approach if one has grasped what I am getting at here. It is not so much the knowledge learned but the ability to adapt and make ones own knowledge and learn ones own methods to follow.

Society has been thinking too communistically and capitalistically for too long and we have been training our people to follow each other in a mass perpetual circle of what we call society, and those of us who are different are caught in the middle with allthis whirring around us in circles, and we just watch this business going round and round and getting no where! But due to such successful brainwashed programming, to try to demonstrate to those whirring round us... They are not able to comprehend and we watch them going round and round until they die having very litrle to show for their lives other then chasing their tales in an energetic pointless whirlwind they call "Life".

Should we rather educate in a different way?



Juliette
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02 Mar 2021, 12:34 pm

There will always be a number of extroadinary people in this world who make their mark via taking a different route and yet reaching heights of success, that weren’t even on their radar(eg Sir Richard Branson) There are people out there who succeeded admirably without a University education. Their books are the ones to read, their stories are the ones that inspire. In my mind, happiness is about more than being outstanding in your field, its about compassion and being able to help others, not tread on them as you climb the ladder. Becoming wealthier or more well known for your achievements is secondary, though certainly a nice bonus.

I’ve watched someone very close to me, who has such passion and drive, who was bullied horrifically in school. He failed to complete a degree due to the methods of teaching used, and this, a subject he had exceptional talent in, but nonetheless, he went on to plan, open and run a successful business, as well as form a band where he composed and played multiple instruments, all with no formal Degree in anything. He’s award-winning, which honestly means little to him, as he has his own way of measuring such things. He’s now set his mind to learning to fly planes, which to me, is mind-blowing, as I’m very aware of the intense level of study, time and dedication required to achieve this. Most who are doing so, are reliant on their wealthy parents to pay the way, and it’s highly expensive. He, however, insists on doing it on his own, every pass of every test, every flight he takes, a massive achievement.

We all have choices in life. We can be sheep or independently minded in our pursuits. Some of us may thrive in the University environment, I know I did(though again, unconventionally) but still be very independent thinkers, applying their experiences in life, incorporating them into the Uni work that they undertake. Completing course work and achieving degress be they Masters, or basic Certificates/Degress at College/Uni level displays many things about the individual. There are opportunities to display independent methods of achieving desired results in many fields.

The bottom line is that we need drive, we need passion and to be hardworking in the field that appeals most to us, in order to thrive. We have choices in life. We can venture off far and wide, learning skills as we go, making our mark on others and they on us, and provided we have goals and motivation, we can achieve almost anything, without those degrees. For those of us who thrive on learning from teachers who’ve been there before us, having a wealth of experience, and who can guide us as both role models and authorities on our chosen subjects, this can inspire and encourage as much as any path. The ridiculously heavy workload and high drop-out rates can have a massive effect on health, especially the high achievers. You are left scratching your head as to why sometimes it has to be this way ... that you’re pushed to your limits. Sometimes, it does seem nonsensical in the scheme of things. But, we all make our own choices, and those tend to continually be assessed and weighed up throughout the years. Hopefully, we can look back and appreciate that the harder something is to achieve, truly, the more worthwhile it is. Discipline in terms of work ethic and power of the mind in overcoming obstacles in life are valuable. You are right that there is quite a percentage of what we’re expected to learn in schools/courses that we don’t ever use again, but I guess this comes under the discipline umbrella ... that we can follow through on what’s expected of us, which can build character.



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02 Mar 2021, 1:00 pm

Teachers teach.  Learners learn.  That is the ideal case.

Lousy teachers?  Cancel their tenure and get rid of them; no excuses or second chances.

Lousy learners?  Some people cannot or will not learn no matter how well they are taught.  Some also want to learn, but they do not stop asking "Why?" long enough to listen to the answers, or they are already planning their objections to what is being taught before the lesson has even begun.

What to do with this second group?
• Should the lesson be dumbed-down for everyone to give the poor performers a better chance at a passing grade, while failing to challenge the minds of those who can want to learn smarter lessons?
• Should everyone be taught only to the point where their ability and willingness to learn falls off?
• Should everyone be taught to highest possible degree and expected to "sink or swim" on their own?



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02 Mar 2021, 3:28 pm

There is much which "seems" irrelevant on the surface-----but becomes eminently relevant when one thinks a little bit.



shlaifu
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02 Mar 2021, 5:06 pm

Juliette wrote:
There will always be a number of extroadinary people in this world who make their mark via taking a different route and yet reaching heights of success, that weren’t even on their radar(eg Sir Richard Branson) There are people out there who succeeded admirably without a University education. Their books are the ones to read, their stories are the ones that inspire. In my mind, happiness is about more than being outstanding in your field, its about compassion and being able to help others, not tread on them as you climb the ladder. Becoming wealthier or more well known for your achievements is secondary, though certainly a nice bonus.

I’ve watched someone very close to me, who has such passion and drive, who was bullied horrifically in school. He failed to complete a degree due to the methods of teaching used, and this, a subject he had exceptional talent in, but nonetheless, he went on to plan, open and run a successful business, as well as form a band where he composed and played multiple instruments, all with no formal Degree in anything. He’s award-winning, which honestly means little to him, as he has his own way of measuring such things. He’s now set his mind to learning to fly planes, which to me, is mind-blowing, as I’m very aware of the intense level of study, time and dedication required to achieve this. Most who are doing so, are reliant on their wealthy parents to pay the way, and it’s highly expensive. He, however, insists on doing it on his own, every pass of every test, every flight he takes, a massive achievement.

We all have choices in life. We can be sheep or independently minded in our pursuits. Some of us may thrive in the University environment, I know I did(though again, unconventionally) but still be very independent thinkers, applying their experiences in life, incorporating them into the Uni work that they undertake. Completing course work and achieving degress be they Masters, or basic Certificates/Degress at College/Uni level displays many things about the individual. There are opportunities to display independent methods of achieving desired results in many fields.

The bottom line is that we need drive, we need passion and to be hardworking in the field that appeals most to us, in order to thrive. We have choices in life. We can venture off far and wide, learning skills as we go, making our mark on others and they on us, and provided we have goals and motivation, we can achieve almost anything, without those degrees. For those of us who thrive on learning from teachers who’ve been there before us, having a wealth of experience, and who can guide us as both role models and authorities on our chosen subjects, this can inspire and encourage as much as any path. The ridiculously heavy workload and high drop-out rates can have a massive effect on health, especially the high achievers. You are left scratching your head as to why sometimes it has to be this way ... that you’re pushed to your limits. Sometimes, it does seem nonsensical in the scheme of things. But, we all make our own choices, and those tend to continually be assessed and weighed up throughout the years. Hopefully, we can look back and appreciate that the harder something is to achieve, truly, the more worthwhile it is. Discipline in terms of work ethic and power of the mind in overcoming obstacles in life are valuable. You are right that there is quite a percentage of what we’re expected to learn in schools/courses that we don’t ever use again, but I guess this comes under the discipline umbrella ... that we can follow through on what’s expected of us, which can build character.


I teach at a university. An design school. Some of the things my students tell me is how hard it is for them to be told they need to find their passion, and how much they struggle to not feel worthless because they haven't found their one single passion. ... I tell them to relax and try things and maybe they'll end up without a single passion that drives them, their lives will be a mixed bag, either way. I think yelling 20 year olds they need to have an all consuming pasdion and drive is problematic. At that point, they don't know enough about the world or life.


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Mountain Goat
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02 Mar 2021, 5:45 pm

What I gained from college and school was knowledge I could use. To me that is far more important then the pieces of paper we call qualifications. The ability to put what one has learned into practice. To me, that is what made the greatest difference and made it worth the daily anxiety and bullying. I could not concentrate at all in college, as the whole class turned against me, so I left each exam early having not even finished rhe papers so I could get away home to avoid being bullied. Qualifications were not import when one enters into life preservation mode.



Juliette
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02 Mar 2021, 7:16 pm

shlaifu wrote:
Juliette wrote:
There will always be a number of extroadinary people in this world who make their mark via taking a different route and yet reaching heights of success, that weren’t even on their radar(eg Sir Richard Branson) There are people out there who succeeded admirably without a University education. Their books are the ones to read, their stories are the ones that inspire. In my mind, happiness is about more than being outstanding in your field, its about compassion and being able to help others, not tread on them as you climb the ladder. Becoming wealthier or more well known for your achievements is secondary, though certainly a nice bonus.

I’ve watched someone very close to me, who has such passion and drive, who was bullied horrifically in school. He failed to complete a degree due to the methods of teaching used, and this, a subject he had exceptional talent in, but nonetheless, he went on to plan, open and run a successful business, as well as form a band where he composed and played multiple instruments, all with no formal Degree in anything. He’s award-winning, which honestly means little to him, as he has his own way of measuring such things. He’s now set his mind to learning to fly planes, which to me, is mind-blowing, as I’m very aware of the intense level of study, time and dedication required to achieve this. Most who are doing so, are reliant on their wealthy parents to pay the way, and it’s highly expensive. He, however, insists on doing it on his own, every pass of every test, every flight he takes, a massive achievement.

We all have choices in life. We can be sheep or independently minded in our pursuits. Some of us may thrive in the University environment, I know I did(though again, unconventionally) but still be very independent thinkers, applying their experiences in life, incorporating them into the Uni work that they undertake. Completing course work and achieving degress be they Masters, or basic Certificates/Degress at College/Uni level displays many things about the individual. There are opportunities to display independent methods of achieving desired results in many fields.

The bottom line is that we need drive, we need passion and to be hardworking in the field that appeals most to us, in order to thrive. We have choices in life. We can venture off far and wide, learning skills as we go, making our mark on others and they on us, and provided we have goals and motivation, we can achieve almost anything, without those degrees. For those of us who thrive on learning from teachers who’ve been there before us, having a wealth of experience, and who can guide us as both role models and authorities on our chosen subjects, this can inspire and encourage as much as any path. The ridiculously heavy workload and high drop-out rates can have a massive effect on health, especially the high achievers. You are left scratching your head as to why sometimes it has to be this way ... that you’re pushed to your limits. Sometimes, it does seem nonsensical in the scheme of things. But, we all make our own choices, and those tend to continually be assessed and weighed up throughout the years. Hopefully, we can look back and appreciate that the harder something is to achieve, truly, the more worthwhile it is. Discipline in terms of work ethic and power of the mind in overcoming obstacles in life are valuable. You are right that there is quite a percentage of what we’re expected to learn in schools/courses that we don’t ever use again, but I guess this comes under the discipline umbrella ... that we can follow through on what’s expected of us, which can build character.


I teach at a university. An design school. Some of the things my students tell me is how hard it is for them to be told they need to find their passion, and how much they struggle to not feel worthless because they haven't found their one single passion. ... I tell them to relax and try things and maybe they'll end up without a single passion that drives them, their lives will be a mixed bag, either way. I think yelling 20 year olds they need to have an all consuming pasdion and drive is problematic. At that point, they don't know enough about the world or life.


That’s wonderful, shlaifu. :) Finding your passion or motivation is not something you would explicity say to a student, for this very reason. It’s innate, in that you either have that inside of you or you don’t. Some are fortunate to know at the age of 14yrs what they want to become and their drive remains strong and firm. We all know people who weren’t sure what they wanted to study or do with their lives, and you’re right to alleviate that pressure by telling them to relax. They won’t benefit from feeling pressured to “figure it out and apply themselves” if they simply don’t know at that point in their lives, what it is that they want to become.

A gap year can be a very good year for some, while for others, it can be a negative. Thankfully, we’re all individuals, with the potential to find our own way, in our own time. There are perpetual students who move from one course to the next or who stay for the love of learning, moving on from one course to the next. Even those who follow through on the course they map out for themselves, can find that 9 times out of 10, that path will lead elsewhere into other vocations they might never have imagined earlier on. How many of us wound up doing and sticking with the first field we chose? Life can take us down many unimagined paths.

Lack of self esteem is the biggest killer of potential. Teachers are in a position to really make a difference in how they support their students, knowing each one individually, their strengths and their weaknesses.



Juliette
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02 Mar 2021, 7:58 pm

Mountain Goat wrote:
What I gained from college and school was knowledge I could use. To me that is far more important then the pieces of paper we call qualifications. The ability to put what one has learned into practice. To me, that is what made the greatest difference and made it worth the daily anxiety and bullying. I could not concentrate at all in college, as the whole class turned against me, so I left each exam early having not even finished rhe papers so I could get away home to avoid being bullied. Qualifications were not import when one enters into life preservation mode.


You were incredibly talented in the jobs you worked. As you’d mentioned before, home education would have made a wonderful difference to your education. I don’t doubt that for one moment. You definitely didn’t need a piece of paper to prove you were qualified, as the skills you learned on the job, besides your own interest and knowledge was more than enough.



shlaifu
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02 Mar 2021, 10:10 pm

Juliette wrote:

That’s wonderful, shlaifu. :) Finding your passion or motivation is not something you would explicity say to a student, for this very reason. It’s innate, in that you either have that inside of you or you don’t. Some are fortunate to know at the age of 14yrs what they want to become and their drive remains strong and firm. We all know people who weren’t sure what they wanted to study or do with their lives, and you’re right to alleviate that pressure by telling them to relax. They won’t benefit from feeling pressured to “figure it out and apply themselves” if they simply don’t know at that point in their lives, what it is that they want to become.

A gap year can be a very good year for some, while for others, it can be a negative. Thankfully, we’re all individuals, with the potential to find our own way, in our own time. There are perpetual students who move from one course to the next or who stay for the love of learning, moving on from one course to the next. Even those who follow through on the course they map out for themselves, can find that 9 times out of 10, that path will lead elsewhere into other vocations they might never have imagined earlier on. How many of us wound up doing and sticking with the first field we chose? Life can take us down many unimagined paths.

Lack of self esteem is the biggest killer of potential. Teachers are in a position to really make a difference in how they support their students, knowing each one individually, their strengths and their weaknesses.


But the kids know those inspirational quotes, the stuff artists of all kinds say in interviews. It's culturally ingrained that they have to have this drive and be someone special, and maybe, if only they could find out what they are really really made for, and so on.
I can't really get this out of their heads. (I'm also not actively trying, I'm just having casual conversations because I'm not awfully authoritative, as a person.)
But what freaks me out is the kids who tell me their true passion is advertising, or tv idents, or some other BS they could end up doing to pay the bills. (And it's fine to do this stuff to pay the bills, but by god, they really think they need to form their identity around something, anything, and pick these banalities!)


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02 Mar 2021, 11:42 pm

There seem to be 2 different "aims" regarding "education":
* The first teaches people "what to learn", focussing on the "student" repeating what they are "taught". Whilst in "objective" areas (such as mathematics, where adding 2 numbers gives a fixed result, or science with the periodic table) it is good, in "subjective" areas it can veer towards "indoctrination".
* The second teaches people "how to learn", providing them with information, and helping them learn how to filter relevent details from it\make use of it.

In general, modern education systems focus on the first of these at the expense of the second.

Then there are the people's various learning styles, with different people learning in different ways (by observation, by trial and error, by reading, by practice, etc.) which further complicate matters...

Have a look at the following for a list, to get an idea of how difficult "teaching" can be in a group environment when each "student" reacts differently to each method, and there isn't a fixed "common" method that will work for all:
https://onlinedegrees.sandiego.edu/complete-list-teaching-methods/

As a former "workplace trainer and assessor", even with adults wanting to learn it was still be a challenge to find the "right" teaching method for a group...

A "lousy" teacher may simply appear this way as a result of none of their students sharing a "learning method", resulting in the teacher being unable to provide each with the appropriate needs, whereas a "good" teacher may simply be one where all their students share the same learning method\similar interests.

Similarly, there is also no such thing as a "lousy learner", they are simply a person who the educator hasn't found the appropriate teaching method for, or haven't tuned the language\examples to the students area of interest - if a student's interest is in cars (for example), giving examples related to something like buildings or trees won't encourage their participation\interest in what is being taught.

Personally, the problem I see with education (besides it ignoring the "how to learn" area) comes down to the number of students for each teacher...The smaller the number, the easier it becomes for the teacher to "know" their students, and so tailor lessons\assistance for them all, rather than be forced into a "one size fits none" approach with larger class sizes...