Carl Sagan Predicted the Trump era

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cyberdad
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13 Jul 2021, 3:55 am

VegetableMan
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13 Jul 2021, 9:56 am

What he predicted was the end result of several decades of neoliberalism and the complete corporate takeover of the state. That allowed the perfect environment for the rise of radical nationalism and a demagogue like Trump.

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13 Jul 2021, 10:13 am

VegetableMan wrote:

"I have a foreboding of an America in my children's or grandchildren's time -- when the United States is a service and information economy; when nearly all of the manufacturing industries have slipped away to other countries; when awesome technological powers are in the hands of a very few, and no one representing the public interest can even grasp the issues; when the people have lost the ability to set their own agendas or knowledgeably question those in authority; when, clutching our crystals and nervously consulting our horoscopes, our critical faculties in decline, unable to distinguish between what feels good and what's true, we slide, almost without noticing, back into superstition and darkness.

The dumbing-down of America is most evident in the slow decay of substantive content in the enormously influential media, the 30-second sound bites (now down to 10 seconds or less), lowest common denominator programming, credulous presentations on pseudoscience and superstition, but especially a kind of celebration of ignorance." -- Carl Sagan (1934-1996), in February of 1996

I see no mention of "neoliberalism" or the "complete takeover of the State". I see an eerily adept description of what America became under the authoritarian narcissism of the Trump administration.

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VegetableMan
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13 Jul 2021, 10:20 am

All these issues existed before Trump, though. Trump was merely what happens when plutocrats run a country into the ground.

Trump would never have ascended to power if our government hadn't sold out to corporate interests.

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13 Jul 2021, 10:23 am

VegetableMan wrote:

All these issues existed before Trump, though. Trump was merely what happens when plutocrats run a country into the ground. Trump would never have ascended to power if our government hadn't sold out corporate interests.

Trump would have never ascended to power if active-duty military service was a presidential requirement.

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VegetableMan
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13 Jul 2021, 10:25 am

Fnord wrote:

VegetableMan wrote:

All these issues existed before Trump, though. Trump was merely what happens when plutocrats run a country into the ground. Trump would never have ascended to power if our government hadn't sold out corporate interests.

Trump would have never ascended to power if active-duty military service was a presidential requirement.

Yes, but somebody as bad or worse with a miltary record could.

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13 Jul 2021, 10:34 am

VegetableMan wrote:

Fnord wrote:

VegetableMan wrote:

All these issues existed before Trump, though. Trump was merely what happens when plutocrats run a country into the ground. Trump would never have ascended to power if our government hadn't sold out corporate interests.

Trump would have never ascended to power if active-duty military service was a presidential requirement.

Yes, but somebody as bad or worse with a military record could.

We veterans know about loyalty, service, and personal sacrifice. We have also witnessed first-hand the horrors of armed conflict (even during so-called "Relief Missions"). Personally, I would hesitate before committing troops to an unwinnable war, and would make the withdrawal of troops from an unwinnable war one of my highest priorities.

If a person misbehaves badly enough during their military service, they receive a "Less-Than-Honorable" discharge. This "bad paper" follows them for the rest of their lives, and makes it difficult for them to get employment in positions of trust and authority, such as CEO of a corporation or President of the United States.

I speculate that had Mr. Trump not dodged the Draft, eventually he would have been given one of those "Less-Than-Honorable" discharges, and not even his own daddy's money could have bought him the White House.

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VegetableMan
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13 Jul 2021, 10:42 am

In Trump's case, you may be right. But let's remember that Hitler served in the German military, and was not dishonorably discharged.

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13 Jul 2021, 10:44 am

VegetableMan wrote:

In Trump's case, you may be right. But let's remember that Hitler served in the German military, and was not dishonorably discharged.

I hereby declare this topic Godwin-ed.

End of thread.

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kraftiekortie
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13 Jul 2021, 10:59 am

Hitler would probably be considered a “special snowflake” today.

He was bitter because he only got the Fourth-Class Iron Cross.

He never made it past Corporal.

VegetableMan
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13 Jul 2021, 11:05 am

Fnord wrote:

VegetableMan wrote:

In Trump's case, you may be right. But let's remember that Hitler served in the German military, and was not dishonorably discharged.

I hereby declare this topic Godwin-ed.

End of thread.

Oh, Lord! I can't believe you went there! I seem to recall you and other members had no problem comparing Trump to Hitler all day long.

I was merely pointing out that someone could serve honorably in the military and adobt radical ideologies.

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13 Jul 2021, 11:10 am

VegetableMan wrote:

Fnord wrote:

VegetableMan wrote:

In Trump's case, you may be right. But let's remember that Hitler served in the German military, and was not dishonorably discharged.

I hereby declare this topic Godwin-ed. End of thread.

Oh, Lord! I can't believe you went there! ...

Dude, YOU "went there" first!

:lol:

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VegetableMan
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13 Jul 2021, 11:13 am

I didn't go there. Show me where I compared Trump to Hitler in this thread.

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Mona Pereth
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16 Jul 2021, 4:39 am

Fnord wrote:

VegetableMan wrote:

Carl Sagan didn't use the words "neoliberalism" or the "complete takeover of the State." But, if I'm not mistaken (VegetableMan, correct me if I'm wrong), the above Carl Sagan quote does say, in other words, essentially the same thing that VegetableMan means by "neoliberalism and the complete corporate takeover of the state."

I suspect you might be misunderstanding VegetableMan's use of the term "neoliberalism," on which see this Wikipedia article:

Quote:

Neoliberalism (or neo-liberalism) is a term used to describe the 20th-century resurgence of 19th-century ideas associated with economic liberalism and free-market capitalism. It is generally associated with policies of economic liberalization, including privatization, deregulation, globalization, free trade, austerity and reductions in government spending in order to increase the role of the private sector in the economy and society; however, the defining features of neoliberalism in both thought and practice have been the subject of substantial scholarly debate. In policymaking, neoliberalism was part of a paradigm shift away from the prevailing Keynesian economic consensus that existed prior to the persistent stagflation of the 1970s.[

The term "neo-liberalism" might confuse some readers, because American journalists commonly use the term "liberal" to mean left-leaning (e.g. Keynesian economics), whereas both economists and left-wing political activists (and the above-quoted Wikipedia article) commonly use "liberal" to refer to a set of economic polices that American journalists commonly refer to as "conservative."

(Note: I disagree with VegetableMan's view that the Democrats are as bad as or even worse than the Republicans. But I suspect that his frequent use of the term "neo-liberalism" might be confusing some readers as to what his actual stance is and the point of view from which he criticizes the Democratic party.)

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Last edited by Mona Pereth on 16 Jul 2021, 5:16 am, edited 1 time in total.

cyberdad
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16 Jul 2021, 4:51 am

Yep, vegetable man getting confused between corporate neo-liberalism (What Sagan was referring to) and what American conservatives call "liberals"

In Australia our conservative party is infact called the Liberal-National coalition.

Sagan's also predicted the next generations lack of attention to detail, consuming shorter and shorter sound bites. He pre-empted the popularity of tik tok.

The dumbing down of America was actually observed even before the internet with the rise of monopolised mass media controlling the news and air-waves. The eventual evolution of fox news.

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16 Jul 2021, 8:26 am

Mona Pereth wrote:

Fnord wrote:

VegetableMan wrote:

Carl Sagan didn't use the words "neoliberalism" or the "complete takeover of the State." But, if I'm not mistaken (VegetableMan, correct me if I'm wrong), the above Carl Sagan quote does say, in other words, essentially the same thing that VegetableMan means by "neoliberalism and the complete corporate takeover of the state." [...]

That is what YOU think.

People who hate one thing will tend to perceive everything else they hate as part of the same greater whole.

:roll:

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