John Chapter 9

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I think people on Wrongplanet are largely atheist because you perceive Christianity as a "religion of the superior" while you view yourself as "inferior" (due to your disability). Well, if you read John Chapter 9, I hope you will change your mind. That is one of my favorite chapters in the Bible. It starts off by saying that disabled didn't sin (John 9:3) and it ends by condemning the "abled" (John 9:41). I really wish you read that chapter. Maybe then you will end up liking Jesus better.

Wrong.  John 9:3 (NIV) says, "Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him."  Obviously, Jesus was referring only to the blind man and his parents, and not all disabled people.Wrong again.  John 9:39-41 (NIV) says, "Jesus said, 'For judgment I have come into this world, so that the blind will see and those who see will become blind.'

Some Pharisees who were with him heard him say this and asked, 'What? Are we blind too?'

Jesus said, 'If you were blind, you would not be guilty of sin; but now that you claim you can see, your guilt remains.'"

Jesus spoke metaphorically, using the word "blind" to indicate spiritual blindness -- ignorance of sin -- which would make the Pharisees innocent of the sins they committed.  But because they knew the law (they could "see"), they were guilty of their sins.  Jesus was admonishing the Pharisees for their cold-hearted adherence to Mosaic law, and their lack of discernment of Spiritual Truth.

I really wish you would read the entire Bible, and consider every word within the context of the surrounding events.  Maybe then you will end up knowing what Jesus really taught.

I agree with Fnord 99.98%. And yes, I’ve spent time studying the Bible and reading all the way through a few times.

Regarding atheists here, it’s been my experience that atheists become atheists often because of some pain or difficulty they’ve experienced which makes it easier to handwave God, to relegate God to non-existence in order to ignore Him and to dodge personal responsibility for their own circumstances. The more I speak with atheists, the more it seems Jesus isn’t really the problem since even atheists often follow Biblical instructions regarding how humans should relate to each other. It’s mainly organized religion and specific doctrines they chafe against, and ultimately using the reality of our fallen existence to deny that there even is a God to believe in.

Of course…this doesn’t apply to ALL atheists. The problem of atheism is diverse and complex. But I’ve seen more atheistic expression dealing with the problem of evil in one’s own personal experience than anything else.

There’s no rational argument against God. The closest thing I’ve seen that approaches one defines reality as objective and the idea of mystical, transcendent beings as being wishful thinking. I obviously disagree with this, of course. But it’s remarkable because it establishes a firm standard by which one could argue in objective terms that God doesn’t exist. The weakness of the argument is that the heavens declare the glory of God and that God reveals Himself to us. If reality is objective and reveals God, then God Himself can be understood as being objective through His interaction and involvement in the universe.

Also…in recent years the ontological argument has gotten pretty cool, too.

I think you severely misunderstand what draws people away from God. Obviously different people have different reasons, but one of the things I've noticed is that evangelical atheists don't WANT there to be a God, given how messed up people and the world can be. The idea that an all powerful being would let some of the horrible things happen continue is unacceptable to them. Then there is the reality of all the horrible things people have done over the centuries in defense of faith, which makes it hard to believe there can be any long term force for good within faith. As a person of faith I think there is a lot of beauty they are missing, but that is besides the point. They are rejecting the concept of God and religion because they see it as making the world a worse place, not a better one. That is why evangelical atheists can get so insistent about wanting to tear away the faith other's hold. If it was just about their own feelings, I think they could accept what others believe. But it isn't.

Last edited by DW_a_mom on 31 Mar 2022, 7:22 pm, edited 2 times in total.

The only reason why I'm an atheist.....is because I don't believe in God. And I don't believe the existence of God (or any Superior Being) is plausible.

I've never been bitter or angry about God. And I don't believe I'm "inferior" because I have a disability.

I believe religion has its good points and its bad points. There are good moral systems within the theologies of most of them. Whether people follow these moral systems is another matter.

Kraftie pretty much nailed what I intended on saying, but I'll add:

I certainly didn't view myself as inferior when I developed my understanding of whether or not a creator was required, or whether insisting a creator must exist was just a needless over-complication.

I've never had any particular resentment towards Jesus, whether he's a historic person, legendary figure or somewhere between the two. As far as celebrities of the era he's certainly the least bloodthirsty and it's likely exposure to parts of his views is what planted the seeds for my support of social safety nets.

And that whole direct action against the money changers thing, Jesus was on some serious black bloc s**t that day. ANTIFA types wish they were that radical.

Makes sense.

This segment from John 9 contains some sad bits and some hilarious bits, https://biblehub.com/blb/john/9.htm

"
18Therefore the Jews did not believe concerning him that he had been blind and had received sight, until they called the parents of him having received sight. 19And they asked them, saying, “Is this your son, of whom you say that he was born blind? Then how presently does he see?”

20Therefore his parents answered and said, “We know that this is our son, and that he was born blind. 21But how he sees presently, we do not know; or who opened his eyes, we do not know. Ask him. He has age. He will speak concerning himself.”

22His parents said these things because they were afraid of the Jews. For the Jews already had agreed together that if anyone should confess Him Christ, he would be expelled from the synagogue. 23Because of this, his parents said, “He has age. Ask him.”

24Therefore they called out a second time the man who had been blind, and said to him, “Give glory to God! We know that this man is a sinner.”

25Then he answered, “Whether He is a sinner I do not know. One thing I do know, that being blind, now I see.”

26So they said to him, “What did He do to you? How did He open your eyes?”

27He answered them, “I told you already, and you did not listen. Why do you wish to hear again? Do you wish to become His disciples also?”

28And they railed at him and said, “You are a disciple of that One, but we are disciples of Moses. 29We know that God has spoken to Moses, but we do not know from where this man is.”

30The man answered and said to them, “In this indeed is an amazing thing, that you do not know from where He is, and yet He opened my eyes. 31We know that God does not hear sinners, but if anyone is God-fearing and does His will, He hears him. 32Never out of the age has it been heard that anyone opened the eyes of one having been born blind. 33If this man were not from God, He could do nothing.”

34They answered and said to him, “You were born entirely in sins, and do you teach us?” And they cast him out.

Spiritual Blindness

35Jesus heard that they had cast him out, and having found him, He said, “Do you believe in the Son of Man?”a

36He answered and said, “And who is He, Lord, that I may believe in Him?”

37Jesus said to him, “You have both seen Him, and He is the One speaking with you.”

38And he was saying, “I believe, Lord.” And he worshiped Him.

39And Jesus said, “For judgment I came into this world, that those not seeing may see, and those seeing may become blind.”b

40Some of the Pharisees who were with Him heard these things, and they said to Him, “Are we also blind?”

41Jesus said to them, “If you were blind, you would have no sin. But since you say, ‘We see,’ your sin remains.”

In John 21:25 (the very last verse of the Gospel of John) it says that Jesus did many more things, but if they were all included, it would be more than the whole earth could contain.

Now, ask yourself, how did John choose which things to include and which not? The ones he included are the ones that are of significance to other situations. On the other hand, the ones that are only specific to that specific person with no consequence to anything else, he probably skipped.

So if Chapter 9 was only about that one specific individual that is of no consequence to others, it would have been skipped wouldn't it.

The fact that Chapter 9 is there implies that it is of significance outside of that situation.

Now, what would be its significance? Is it about eye deseases? No, Bible is not an optomitrist manual. Its significance is in the fact that literal blindness of that man is symbolic of figurative blindness of others, including people with Asperger. Because the figurative blindness -- the one pertaining to the mind -- is a lot closer to the topic of the Gospels than the literal blindness pertaining to the eyes. Because Bible deals with the mind a lot more than the eyes.

As far as that man, yes, he had a literal physical blindness of his eyes. But the reason that incident was worth including into the Gospel is because people with the symbolic blindness of their mind are in a similar situation. What happened to this man (the literal) happened to symbolize what happends to a lot of other people (the spiritual) -- that is why John chose to include this incident.

And aspies can be thought of as people with symbolic blindness (represented by their lack of social awarenness). That is why that chapter can be directly used to defend aspies against the NT-s.



You are correct in saying it was metaphorical. But that precisely supports my point. Just like pharesees "metaphorically" had better vision than simple people, in the same way today NT-s metaphorically have better vision than aspies. The way NT-s judge aspies for not following social conventions is very similar to the way pharesees judged others for not following the law. And, just like pharesees viewed themselves as morally superior, in the same way NT-s view themselves as morally superior to aspies. So that verse, in today's context, can be said that aspies, due to being socially unaware, have no sin, but NT-s, since they claim to be socially aware, are guilty of sin.



I haven't read most of the Old Testament yet, but I read the New Testament many times, especially the Gospels. The common theme of the Gospels was Jesus standing up against the elite in support of social rejects. Back then elite was pharesees and rejects were lepers and tax collectors. Today the elite is NT-s and rejects are aspies. So yes, much of the rest of the Gospels can, too, be used in defense of aspies against the NT-s. And John Chapter 9 is very much in line with that.

Last edited by QFT on 31 Mar 2022, 10:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.

---

i Accept God For All That Is
DarK Thru LiGHT; The Christian
And Muslim Version That Most Folks

Profess, Not So Much; Particularly, recently,

As i Told A Muslim FRiEnD of Mine the Same
Way As i Easily Tell Christian FRiEnDS That The Version

of the Christian God That Many of the 45,000 Plus
Denominations Across the World Literally Profess As

An All Loving Merciful Forgiving God, Who Per the Parable
of the Goats and Sheep in Matthew, Burns Those Naughty

Folks Forever Who

Do Not Feed and
Clothe The Poor;

Yes, Changing Those
Folks From Loyal So-Called
Sheep to Naughty, Naughty Goats

And Burning Them Forever As They
Do Not Do Enough Do Gooding to be
Spared Torture Forever; Particularly, if they

Are Born As Some Folks Are, Biologically Speaking,
Without The Feeling to Love or Even a Conscience As

Such For Feeling
Regret For Harming
Someone, Even the Only
Way They May Feel Anything
At All in Life is to Actually Harm

Someone Starting With Small Animals

And Starting Fires For Destruction, Just
For the Adrenaline Rush As They Don't Get
Any Warm And Fuzzy Feelings of Oxytocin

As They May Not Biologically Be Able to Feel
Love That Way that The Altruistic Person Who Feeds
And Clothes the Poor Totally Feels As Warm Happiness Within...

So, Who Is the Poorest Homeless Person of All; the One Without A
External Warm Home or the One Who Has Never Had A Warm Home Within...

Well, Well, Well, Well, Humans Have Also Progressed Enough to Understand that
Human Beings Like My Wife With Partial Complex Seizures aren't Actually Demon

Possessed

And Don't Deserve
to Be Burned at the
Stake in the Name of
Some Evil God That Would Support
That Torture No Different Than Hell Forever

For the Psychopathic Leaning Person Born that way too...

And Face Palm, For Actually Suggesting Folks Here Feel Inferior
to The So-Called Christian God That Portrays Someone More Like

Trump in that Parable of the Goats and Sheep, Except That God Gets
to Fire the Enemies Forever; The God That Said They Will Always Love
Them With Mercy And

Forgiveness

True That's Basically
A Definition of A God
With More Than One 'Personality

Disorder;' Including, Likely the Folks
Who Wrote the Story too; 'Happy April
Fred's Day Eve,' Born With the 'Tarot Fool Number'
Still in 'Numerology' of 0, With Only 1's to Affirm
The Last Three Challenges of my Life; For Whatever
The Hell Or Heaven, i Wanna Do With Free Will; It's No

Less or More Believable

Now Than A Little Man
God With Some 'Personality
Issues'; Not Unlike 'Will Smith';

i Suggest that God Needs to See Someone;

Perhaps A Psychotherapist And Improve their Humanity...

My Muslim FRiEnD Said She Believes in the 'God That Tortures
Naughty Folks Forever' With 'Glory Be To Him'; i Didn't Vote For Trump

And i'm Not
Gonna Vote For
That God Either...

However, What i Will Do Per
Luke 17:21 per Whatever Ghost Author
Wrote the Lines of Finding the Kingdom of

Love Within is Continue to Create A God of

Love to iNHaLE Peace Exhale LoVE iN JoY oF LiGHT
Giving, Sharing, Caring, Healing For All With Least Harm...

Dam Sure

Beats

Someone

Torturing
Naughty, Naughty
Humans Forever as
They Don't Have the Patience
Or Ability to Rehabilitate them;

True, We Need A More Wonderful
'God Counselor'
than

that

For
Damned Sure...

Listen, i Go To Church,
Shortly After the Homily
Starts At the Catholic Church
as it's one of Few that Doesn't

Keep Blaring Hell Fire to the Folks
They Don't Understand in this World;

Yet Whenever Some Antiquated Ridiculous
Old Dusty Belief Up to Evil is Uttered; i Just

Cancel it With

Love and

Send it Out of my Soul;

Like i Told mY FRiEnD, i Respect
Her Freedom to Believe Whatever
She Does and Do As She Pleases;

Yet An Evil God Like That; Hell no for me;

Jesus F in Christ; i'm More oF A Real Man Than THaT For Real;

Jesus F in Christ; Even Chris Rock is A Greater 'God' Than That....

Standing
THere Turning
The Other Cheek
Almost Making it
Believable that JeSuS Could Exist on Earth...

The 'Other God' Would Have Likely Traded His
Virgin Daughters to Be Raped, So His Friend Wouldn't
Be Sodomized; Or Dashed The Children of An Opposing
Tribe's Heads Against Rocks in Refrain of Joyous Psalm;

i've Read Stories Like that too; They Aren't Used, Unless

Someone Really

Evil wants to
Justify What

They Wanna Do Evil Next;

Saying, See It's in that so-called
Perfect Story Book; Yet We Have Libraries

of Books Now; With Fresher Ways of Love Than that....

God is Love,

Now Just Do It;

Like Gandhi Said,

Your Jesus is Alright with me;

Yet The Ones who follow Him Not so Much...

Yet You See, It's Plain to See to me, They
Got it From

the Book too...

It's a Book Of Love;
It's a Book Of Ignorance,
Also that leads Still to Much
Harm, Rape, Maiming, and Killing too...

Sort of Like the Human Condition That Authored it too...

The Book Is Messy; Not Particularly Rational; And Yes, Very Human...

No Wonder It's So Popular; It Appeals to All Kinds; And Ones Who Pretend

Like the
Rest of the
Story Doesn't exist...

It Doesn't Really Have An 'Ethical Leg' to Stand
On, Unless Ya Want 'God to Accept His Oscar'

For Burning

Folks forever

in Hell With No
Mercy, Forgiveness,
And No Love Left At
All; Wow What A Slap

ACross the Face of Truth

iN LiGHT Thru DarK

To Sheep Becoming Goats

in the
Chapters
Before that
in Matthew at least...

"They Will Know We aRe
Christians By Our Love"

Wow, Amazing, if Everyone Did that For Real...

*Taps Finger, Still Waiting At Church At Least,

Among the Multitudes of Frowns THere And of

Course i Keep SMiLinG iN All WeatherS And SeaSons of Humanity...

NoW Cause i Can;

Cause i Will NoW;

Just Because i Am Love, i Do Love True
iN DarK Thru LiGHT At Least For HoW i 'SEe' NoW...

---

Either you did not read what I posted, or you completely misunderstood it.  John 9:3 (NIV) says, "Neither this man nor his parents sinned," said Jesus, "but this happened so that the works of God might be displayed in him." Obviously, Jesus was referring only to the blind man and his parents, and not all disabled people.

HOWEVER, Chapter 9 in its entirety is all about displaying the works of God and the foolish "blindness" of the Pharisees.  It is not about glorifying the disabled.

John the Beloved wrote:

Jesus did many other things as well. If every one of them were written down, I suppose that even the whole world would not have room for the books that would be written.

What John said about many other works in 21:25 only indicates that he did not report every one of Jesus' signs, miracles, and wonders; nor did he report everything Jesus said or did during the course of each day.  Like most modern-day journalists, he likely cherry-picked only those acts which held up his First Premise (John 1:1-14, NIV):

John the Beloved wrote:

In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God.  He was with God in the beginning.  Through Him all things were made; without Him nothing was made that has been made.  In Him was life, and that life was the light of all mankind.  The light shines in the darkness, and the darkness has not overcome it.

There was a man sent from God whose name was John.  He came as a witness to testify concerning that light, so that through him all might believe.  He himself was not the light; he came only as a witness to the light.

The true light that gives light to everyone was coming into the world.  He was in the world, and though the world was made through him, the world did not recognize him.  He came to that which was His own, but His own did not receive Him.  Yet to all who did receive Him, to those who believed in His name, He gave the right to become children of God -- children born not of natural descent, nor of human decision or a husband's will, but born of God.

The Word became flesh and made his dwelling among us.  We have seen His glory, the glory of the one and only Son, who came from the Father, full of grace and truth.

Understand this: You are arguing your subjective opinions against people who have attended Christian seminaries, studied their Bibles, and led churches and church groups.  While you have the right to express your subjective opinions, we have the right to criticize those opinions and correct them when they are wrong.

I don't identify as "evangelical atheist" but I very much agree with it.
In my case, I just can't say "I believe in God" while being true to myself. It would be a lie. A hypothetical god who would want me to lie to him is not worth believing in.
Wheather God exists or not, doing my best to do good and accepting I won't be perfect is the way to go. Things are just simpler for me since I came to this conclusion.
If people find solace in faith, that's great for them. For me, it was mainly a great source of anxiety. Leaving it behind was like taking some enormous weight off my shoulders.

For me, denying God was a tremendous source of anxiety.  Restoring my faith in God was a tremendous relief.

---

FoR Me, Shedding 'Old Time' Religions,

Same As That Nasty Green Habit of
MaKinG Capitalism The God of the

Declaration of Independence with
Life, Liberty, And the Pursuit of True Happiness

YeS FoR Me

IS A

Key to
Finding
God of LoVE iN
JoY OF LiGHT For
All With Least Harm WiTHiN Yes For

ALL Giving, Sharing, Caring, Healing

iNHaLinG Peace ExhalinG LoVE REAL

For Me Big Mistake Before LooKinG
To Those Not Fool Enough to See Truth

For True What Harms Forever iS ONly Evil...

No IfS AndS OR Buts,

Only Naked Truth;

Love When Real and
True iN LiGHT And DarK

Never Requires Worship,

Never Fears Criticism Now

Naked, Enough, Whole, Complete;

And Nope, Dam Sure Isn't Afraid to
Love And Even in Damndest Ways Doesn't

Torture Any Part of Nature Forever As REAL DarKesT Evil...

Try to Convince me of Something As 'Idiotic' As That: NOPE.

i Don't Owe Anyone

Anything to

BE A 'Real Fool' Like That...

And For Those Who are Willing
To BE A Scape Goat For That Have At IT...

For Whatever 'Orange' Arises From Street Gutters Next...

Do As Ya

Will

That's

What Folks Do
LiGHT Thru DarK Anyway...

Under the Force of LoVE REaL

or a Lesser 'God'
iNDeeD...

Than
i
Am
LoVE ReaL

---

I'm sure they will give you all kinds of answers, if you ask.

Last edited by HighLlama on 01 Apr 2022, 3:49 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Indeed. And bear in mind, too, that you are just one of a looooooong line of folks, including myself, that have made so much effort to explain something in the Bible or defend an outlook that WP'ers insist on ignoring or tearing down. I'm not going to tell you that you can't try. Just understand what you're getting into and be prepared for a mostly fruitless endeavor.

I think the saddest, most pathetic display I've ever seen was a Jehovah's Witness apologist back in the heyday of WP's "Strident Atheist" period. First off, you had a couple of Christians like myself along with a slough of atheists who were all highly knowledgeable about the Bible and Christianity. This poor guy was getting slammed on all sides, Christians and Atheists alike, and eventually devolved into him copy/pasting Watchtower literature. I kinda felt bad for him, but PPR isn't a TOTAL echo chamber yet.

Spend some time studying St. Thomas Aquinas, Cornelius van Til (my personal favorite), Alvin Plantinga, William Lane Craig, R.C. Sproul, and really dive into your Bible reading. The Scofield reference Bible is the modern day Christian equivalent of Maimonides (in my opinion) Commentary on the Mishnah. Lot's of good stuff out there that can help you be more effective. Of course...there's nothing quite like YOUR story and how God has worked in your life.

Once again, the way Bible is set up is that it only mentions individual situations if there are lots of other people in a similar situations. Do you remember various Bible studies where Abraham or Jacob or Moses or Phareaoh or Esau were used as an illustration of various people in the present? How come you didn't say "wait a second, it is just the story of Moses, don't apply it to anything else". Same here. This individual happened to be an object lesson for a lot of other people -- as evident by the fact that he was worth including in the Bible.



It is both.

Pharesees = Elite that everyone thinks very highly of

Disabled = low status group of people that everyone thinks badly of

Object lesson: contrary to popular opinion, the Elite was blind and the blind man wasn't. In fact verse 39 plainly states that.

So uplifting the disabled and criticizing pharesees are two sides of the same coin.

And yes, that is Jesus' approach throughout the rest of the Gospels. When He would uplift tax collectors and criticize pharesees at the same time. Luke 18:10-14 and Mark 12:41-44 are just two examples of the same thing, out of many many others.