Reconstructing identity based on modern Projections

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cyberdad
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29 Apr 2023, 1:58 am

I notice on the internet there is a massive backlash against so called casting of non-white actors in historic and fictional roles that are perceived to be traditionally "white", Some podcasts with almost a million followers are virtually dedicated to this one topic. A somewhat bizarre claim is that this will begin to lead to the end of "white" civilisation. Just google on youtube and there's hundreds of podcasters bemoaning this "race swapping" which they label wokeness

However what is new to me is how much people living in regions that are traditionally non-European buying into the same weird fantasies. Countries in South America and the middle east and India also apparently concerned about the colour and depiction of people in ancient world being representative of modern populations.

It is one thing to claim civilisations post-Roman/Greek times as "white" but it becomes strange when people living in non-white countries project the same "eurocentric" yard stick on civilisations that existed in the land they now occupy thousands of years earlier as being "theirs"?? This is factually and intellectually wrong, In my view civilisations that are long extinct are the intellectual property of all human beings not just the people who occupy the land where they once flourished.

In my view eurocentricism has contaminated the minds of people all over the world to the extent that they are also projecting eurocentric concepts such as "white adjacency" onto long lost civilisations that (coincidentally) existed on land they now occupy, Case in point. The casting of Namor or the feathered serpent in the Hollywood sequel to Black Panther. Mexican people objected to the casting of the actor Tenoch Huerta Mejía he was too dark and not representative of modern Mexicans. To me this is utterly bizarre given modern Mexicans are the descendants of Spaniards (foreigners) who in modern times have zero connection to Mayan culture or to the people who called themselves Mayan.

The actor, Tenoch Huerta Mejía, on the other hand is indigenous and is culturally and spiritually closer to Mayans than the Spanish speaking Spanish descended Mexicans.

There is has been at least 4 centuries of whitewashing world history and the consequences of this indocrination is far more insidious and detrimental to world history than some random netflix show having a biracial woman play a Greek/Macedonian queen in ancient Egypt who is also erroneously claimed by modern day Arab identifying Egpytians who (in my view) are equally not connected to Cleopatra anymore than the actress who played the character.



Pepe
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29 Apr 2023, 2:18 am

(Unless it is a serious documentary) The producers will use whatever/whoever will bring in the biggest bucks.
Simples. 8)



cyberdad
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29 Apr 2023, 2:42 am

Pepe wrote:
(Unless it is a serious documentary) The producers will use whatever/whoever will bring in the biggest bucks.
Simples. 8)


But I'm not sure "woke" bring in advertising revenue. I would have thought its safer to play "fan service"



Pepe
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29 Apr 2023, 2:59 am

cyberdad wrote:
Pepe wrote:
(Unless it is a serious documentary) The producers will use whatever/whoever will bring in the biggest bucks.
Simples. 8)


But I'm not sure "woke" bring in advertising revenue. I would have thought its safer to play "fan service"


Wasn't "Black Panther" essentially a woke/equal-rights production?

Quote:
Why did Black Panther do so well?
It Became A Rallying Cry For Diversity And Representation In Films. Finally, Black Panther became the superhero movie that solidified the argument for more diversity and representation in superhero films. Before this, a predominant minority had yet to command an entire blockbuster.29 Nov 2022


https://www.google.com/search?q=did+Pla ... s-wiz-serp



cyberdad
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29 Apr 2023, 3:06 am

Pepe wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Pepe wrote:
(Unless it is a serious documentary) The producers will use whatever/whoever will bring in the biggest bucks.
Simples. 8)

But I'm not sure "woke" bring in advertising revenue. I would have thought its safer to play "fan service"

Wasn't "Black Panther" essentially a woke/equal-rights production?


Black Panther was a Marvel comic and the character Namor was also from the comics.



Pepe
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29 Apr 2023, 3:16 am

cyberdad wrote:
Pepe wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
Pepe wrote:
(Unless it is a serious documentary) The producers will use whatever/whoever will bring in the biggest bucks.
Simples. 8)

But I'm not sure "woke" bring in advertising revenue. I would have thought its safer to play "fan service"

Wasn't "Black Panther" essentially a woke/equal-rights production?


Black Panther was a Marvel comic and the character Namor was also from the comics.


Oh...
Not my genre of interest...
Not into the Marvel Universe.

But my argument still stands.
"Black Panther" DID fit the diversity changing times, as did "The Mod Squad" and "Shaft" in its day.
A perfect time to exploit the social/progressive zeitgeist. 8)

Capitalism exploits situations extremely well, and the ppl involved aren't usually aware of it. 8)



cyberdad
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29 Apr 2023, 3:45 am

That takes wokeness back to the 1960s, there was also a lot of "blackxploitation" movies which continued the minstrel tradition of caricaturing black actors into objects of ridicule and comedy which continued to the late 1970s. Mel Brooks and Chevy Chase carried that tradition (appropriated?) in their early 1980s productions but removed all the black actors.



naturalplastic
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29 Apr 2023, 4:25 am

cyberdad wrote:
That takes wokeness back to the 1960s, there was also a lot of "blackxploitation" movies which continued the minstrel tradition of caricaturing black actors into objects of ridicule and comedy which continued to the late 1970s. Mel Brooks and Chevy Chase carried that tradition (appropriated?) in their early 1980s productions but removed all the black actors.


Get your facts straight please.

"Blaxploitation movies" were low budget movies made by Blacks for Blacks. Often defying White sensibilities. Hardly "minstrel shows".

Mel Brooks made one movie (Blazing Saddles), in the early Seventies, that (a) came right after the fall of old kind of movie puritanism (censorship of sex and poking fun a religion), and (b) before the new modern kind of puritanism had kicked in (PC, or Wokeness, or whatever you wanna call it). So it poked fun a racial stereotypes. The flaunting of the later offends young folks today. But it didnt offend even minorities back then because it was done in a good natured way, and the whole movie's theme is anti racist.



naturalplastic
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29 Apr 2023, 7:18 am

Most "Mexicans" are NOT "Spaniards".

Most Mexicans are Spanish speaking Mestizo (mixed Indian and European descent).

Mexican history did not "work" the same way as Anglo North American and Australian history.

The White Europeans did not replace the natives and create a "settler society" the way they did in the US, Canada, and Australia.

The White Europeans conquered the natives. Thats why they were called that. "Conquistadors", and not "pioneers", or "setters".

The natives had a large population with cities. The Spanish came in with all male bands of soldiers (who had no choice but to marry into the native population). This resulted in the modern Mexican people who are largely White only at the aristocracy level (but have some Indian blood even at that level), a middle bulk of the population that almost entirely Mestizo, and a peasantry that in some regions is still largely Indian (they still speak Zapotec, Mayan, or Nautl, in rural regions). Modern Mexicans have every right to "claim" Teotihucan (for example) as "their own" if thats their choice (and they do) because modern Mexicans ARE largely descended from the builders.

In contrast the Indigenous peoples of Canada and the US (like the aboriginies of Australia) were a small population, and the British sent whole families (like the Jamestowners, and the Pilgrims) who ended up just pushing the natives aside, or killing them (rather than conquering them), and replaced the natives with a new, White (mostly purely White) population. And even when there was intermarriage the Whites outnumbered the surviving natives by a huge ratio and watered down their DNA more than happened in Mexico.



ToughDiamond
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29 Apr 2023, 1:29 pm

I just view substituting black characters for white as a fashion thing. I don't think it changes anything much politically or socially. Usually I don't much mind, but occasionally I feel a bit of disdain and boredom if I think they're just jumping on the bandwagon for the sake of it. I marvel that some people take it very seriously.



Misslizard
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29 Apr 2023, 4:25 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
cyberdad wrote:
That takes wokeness back to the 1960s, there was also a lot of "blackxploitation" movies which continued the minstrel tradition of caricaturing black actors into objects of ridicule and comedy which continued to the late 1970s. Mel Brooks and Chevy Chase carried that tradition (appropriated?) in their early 1980s productions but removed all the black actors.


Get your facts straight please.

"Blaxploitation movies" were low budget movies made by Blacks for Blacks. Often defying White sensibilities. Hardly "minstrel shows".

Mel Brooks made one movie (Blazing Saddles), in the early Seventies, that (a) came right after the fall of old kind of movie puritanism (censorship of sex and poking fun a religion), and (b) before the new modern kind of puritanism had kicked in (PC, or Wokeness, or whatever you wanna call it). So it poked fun a racial stereotypes. The flaunting of the later offends young folks today. But it didnt offend even minorities back then because it was done in a good natured way, and the whole movie's theme is anti racist.

I recommend this one.
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Black_Caesar_(film)


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cyberdad
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29 Apr 2023, 8:15 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
"Blaxploitation movies" were low budget movies made by Blacks for Blacks. Often defying White sensibilities. Hardly "minstrel shows". .


Really? a lot of them were produced by Joel Freeman (a white man) and made for a mostly white audience
Even Black Caesar was an MGM production

The black actors were paid < contemporary white actors and rather than defying white sensibilities they were a form of anti-establishment porn overemphasising the sexual prowess and aggressive/violence of the black man. The profits from these movies went back to white owned/run studios.

Unlike popular white Hollywood movies at the time, these black movie roles were still caricatures. It wasn't till Roots (in the 1970s) and Spike Lee in the early 1980s that the "black experience" in the US ever translated onto the big screen



cyberdad
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29 Apr 2023, 8:26 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
. Modern Mexicans have every right to "claim" Teotihucan (for example) as "their own" if thats their choice (and they do) because modern Mexicans ARE largely descended from the builders. .


You are making an assumption they want to be associated with indigenous culture which is completely wrong. They don't.
Most Mexicans are Mesitzo which means they have varying degrees of Spanish ancestry. They speak Spanish and are catholic. and despise the indigenous populations who are remnants of the Maya and Aztec whom the actor playing Namor in Black Panther hails from.

Many docu-series about Maya or Aztec use Mexican actors and popular actors in Mexico have the phenotype all Mexicans aspire toward which is Spanish. Seeing a indigenous person play such a big role (rather than a "popular" Mexican actor in a Marvel movie was not universally popular in the actor's country of birth. That was my point.



Pepe
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29 Apr 2023, 9:33 pm

cyberdad wrote:
That takes wokeness back to the 1960s, there was also a lot of "blackxploitation" movies which continued the minstrel tradition of caricaturing black actors into objects of ridicule and comedy which continued to the late 1970s. Mel Brooks and Chevy Chase carried that tradition (appropriated?) in their early 1980s productions but removed all the black actors.


Whoa!
Am I talking to Dr Jekyll or Mr Hyde? 8O

You have trashed the CONTEXT I was using when I was talking about exploitation.
If you are interested, I can explain what I mean or we could wait for a different persona to enter. :mrgreen:



Pepe
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29 Apr 2023, 9:38 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Most "Mexicans" are NOT "Spaniards".

Most Mexicans are Spanish speaking Mestizo (mixed Indian and European descent).

Mexican history did not "work" the same way as Anglo North American and Australian history.

The White Europeans did not replace the natives and create a "settler society" the way they did in the US, Canada, and Australia.

The White Europeans conquered the natives. Thats why they were called that. "Conquistadors", and not "pioneers", or "setters".

The natives had a large population with cities. The Spanish came in with all male bands of soldiers (who had no choice but to marry into the native population). This resulted in the modern Mexican people who are largely White only at the aristocracy level (but have some Indian blood even at that level), a middle bulk of the population that almost entirely Mestizo, and a peasantry that in some regions is still largely Indian (they still speak Zapotec, Mayan, or Nautl, in rural regions). Modern Mexicans have every right to "claim" Teotihucan (for example) as "their own" if thats their choice (and they do) because modern Mexicans ARE largely descended from the builders.

In contrast the Indigenous peoples of Canada and the US (like the aboriginies of Australia) were a small population, and the British sent whole families (like the Jamestowners, and the Pilgrims) who ended up just pushing the natives aside, or killing them (rather than conquering them), and replaced the natives with a new, White (mostly purely White) population. And even when there was intermarriage the Whites outnumbered the surviving natives by a huge ratio and watered down their DNA more than happened in Mexico.


Very informative. 8)



Pepe
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29 Apr 2023, 9:41 pm

ToughDiamond wrote:
I just view substituting black characters for white as a fashion thing. I don't think it changes anything much politically or socially. Usually I don't much mind, but occasionally I feel a bit of disdain and boredom if I think they're just jumping on the bandwagon for the sake of it. I marvel that some people take it very seriously.


Well, I'm autistic.
In most things, I prefer representations to be factually, erm, factual.
But there are times when artistic merit is acceptible.
It really depends.